Korg Forums

[johnmonsen1980]

Hi, it's been so long since I've visited the Korg forums I couldn't get in under my old user name. Anyway, I have been using my Kronos 2 to trigger Spectronics Keyscape on my DAW for the past few years. It sounds awesome, but I'm going to start gigging again and would like to be able to have the same quality sounds without buying and using a laptop. I don't need a bunch of piano sounds, I want just one quality acoustic sound like the LA custom C7 Grand Piano in Keyscape. I've never been happy with any of the onboard piano sounds on Kronos, and I've tried tweaking them. So, what's the best way to get a great piano sound:

- buy a new stage piano, or
- buy a laptop and trigger Keyscape, or
- buy and load a great sounding piano library that I'm not aware of on the Kronos, or
- any other option that I'm not aware of.

Thanks, I really appreciate any input and suggestions.
_________________
- Hammond B3, 122 Leslie, PR-40
- Korg Kronos 2 (73 key), CPS Spacestation V3
- DAW, Studio One Pro, Genelec Monitors, Keyscape

[KK]

Did you try Korg's Italian grand ? Even though every person might prefer different piano sounds (actually any instrument), it's now one of my two favorites along with the Berlin. If you never tried it, simply install and try the demo version. There's also Korg's Austrian grand, not as good IMHO, but worth testing as well if you didn't try it yet. The other options you mention are good too, but more complicated/expensive.

[soarsco]

I have the Kronos 2 88 and have been pleased with the builtin pianos and their variants. Now, I don't play all that great but the sound to me is good.

I also think you should try the Italian and Austrian pianos. I like them both from what I can tell. I wish the demos gave a bit more play time before dropping the volume.

I lean more towards the Austrian piano of the two, but ultimately, I will likely end up with both.

[KingKronos]

[KingKronos]

Another bonus going the iPad route —
The B3x app gets rave reviews.
Even the Hammond clone purists speak well of it.
Checkout keyboardcorner forum for more details.

So the iPad could improve the Kronos in 2 areas there.

[voip]

The thing with the Korg pianos listed above is that they sound convincingly close to the real thing. On stage, a bit more "oomph" might be needed, which can be achieved using effects and EQ. The LA custom C7 Grand Piano in Keyscape sounds "beefed up". It is pleasing to the ear, however.

.

[Hector Space]

I’ve spent a lot of time and effort on trying to get a ‘good’ live piano sound out of stage keyboards. Everything from Yamaha P250 and P515 though Roland RD700SX/GX, RD800, RD2000, Kurzweil Forte, Nord Stage 2 HA88, Casio PX5s, Kawai MP7SE, Kronos K2.

My requirements are simply realistic touch and sound.

Of the instrument’s the only one to meet my piano needs more or less out the box was the Kawai MP7SE.

After a huge amount of editing the Kurzweil Forte is capable of a great piano sound and dynamic but the Fatar TP 40L it has is not any good for playing piano properly. It was always frustrating.

The Roland’s all have nice keybeds but somehow the SN pianos were always a compromise and although I think the V piano is fascinating it isn’t the real thing and it doesn’t have enough harmonics in the upper middle.

Casio’s PX5s is surprisingly good it’s clunky and chunky and works pretty well for gigging. I tend to use it as a light weight 88 note controller now for the K2

I don’t like Yamaha’s stage piano sounds and I think their stage piano actions are nearly as bad as Nords and Kurzweil’s. Even the NWX is a bodge.

All Nords with exception of the GrandStage suffer from Fatar keybeds. And their pianos are not editable at all so you’re stuck with they way they’ve been setup, which is fine if you’re simply adding some styled piano to a track but if you really want to play the damn thing you’re stuck with a very one dimensional sound.

The Kronos is a tough one..
Firstly you have the limitations of the SGX2 engine which provides virtually no user configuration facilities and certainly no per note editing as on the Kawai, Kurzweil and Roland. Considering the depth and quality of the sampling on the K you really struggle to access the pp and ppp ranges on most of Korg’s pianos. Having only two basic controls at your disposal (velocity offset and velocity intensity) you struggle to get all 88 notes to react realistically to your touch.

Secondly you have the issue of the keybed, the RH3 on the K2 88 should in theory have been used as the 0, 0 configuration option for scaling the velocity intensity and offset correctly to match the real instrument, but I’m not at all convinced it is. Playing the K2 from my RD2000 PHA50 is a step up but it does need some very careful adjustment of these two controls in order to get these SGX2 pianos to play realistically. Even then I would choose to have the ppp and pp layers play a little loader and I’ve found that I need to split the SGX2 patch into two engines across the keyboard, the split point being around g2. This allows the left hand volume and dynamics to be tempered to be more in keeping with the typical mic’ing of a piano in a live setup. Where you certainly don’t want left hand notes to drown right hand notes.. and no! This isn’t simply an eq issue, it’s also to do with the dynamics of the key response.

So in the end I’ve got a pretty good stage setup using the K2 61 with a Roland RD2000 as a controller. I’ve found that of the K2’s German grands I like the Ferrante the best for its all round performance. The D2’s are a bit too alive for me and although I like the D1’s I think the Ferrante has more dynamics. The Berlin is quite a clunky beast with a dull patch with short decay in the middle.. I’ve found it really shines playing boogie (but that’s probably blasphemy!) I don’t like the Italian Grand sound.. If I was playing in a rock band I’d probably choose one of the K2’s overly bright Jap grands.. but I’m not!

Seriously you can get the K2 sing pretty well on AP but it’s a ton of work.. for an easy life I’d just buy a Kawai MP7se and be done! Lol

[johnmonsen1980]

Hi, thanks to all of you that took the time to respond. You gave me a lot of food for thought and it's been very helpful. I went to the local music store yesterday and tried 3 stage pianos - and was not impressed with any of them. I tried to Roland RD-2000, Nord Stage 3, and a Yamaha. I also tried loading a demo version of Korg's Italian Grand on my Kronos 2 - and it still has that Korg piano sound that I don't particularly care for. So, now I'm going to investigate the best (simplest) way to use my Kronos 2 to trigger Keyscape in a live situation - laptop, iPad, etc. Thanks again!
_________________
- Hammond B3, 122 Leslie, PR-40
- Korg Kronos 2 (73 key), CPS Spacestation V3
- DAW, Studio One Pro, Genelec Monitors, Keyscape

[wocongming]

[johnmonsen1980]

Would you be willing to share your tweaks? Thanks
_________________
- Hammond B3, 122 Leslie, PR-40
- Korg Kronos 2 (73 key), CPS Spacestation V3
- DAW, Studio One Pro, Genelec Monitors, Keyscape

[AntonySharmman]

johnmonsen1980 & wocongming ,
when pianos samples are inappropriate then no tweaking can save them !
Demanding pianists must have a look at WavesArt Kronos Pianos Suite 2 , Rock Concert grand is very similar to keyscape quality
not to mention WavesArt "real" 10 feet Italian Concert Grand
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook

Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V

[Hector Space]

There's an issue with engines for most third party sampled pianos.
Korg generally does not give third parties access to the SGX2 engine and so this limits most of them to the HD-1 engine which is older and less geared to providing the needs of sample based AP synthesis.

Both SGX2 and HD-1 based commercial sample libraries suffer from the lack of per note editing that you need to adjust the intimate touch, tone, pitch and volume to suit across all 88 notes and 7+ layers.

Without this level of piano technician you rely on the purchased sample library to setup perfectly for your needs. Most other companies have realised this is not possible and so provide per note editing.

Korg haven’t got the message yet. And I guess they never will now.

[AntonySharmman]

A third party skilled developer can easily recreate SGX2 engine in Combination mode while in HD1 engine , since Program timbres as standalone
are completely outdated for premium sampling development with all Articulation & FX.

The primary success of emulating an acoustic piano is completely based of smooth and linear microphones sampling per layer since intensive
ringing and other artifacts are mostly caused by improper position and resonance of sampling microphones under over gained thresholds ...
Sampling of acoustic instruments is a real artwork that a few people in the world know how to achieve properly !
_________________
Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook

Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V

[spottingjonah]

[danmusician]

"The Best Piano Sound" is so subjective, considering that Steinway keeps a room of concert grands in NYS for pianists to choose from. What I like and what you like are going to be very different.

I was demonstrating the Kronos to non-musicians, including showing them the different piano sounds. One of the people in attendance said, "I don't hear any difference." As musicians, we tend to obsess over the minutia of sonic detail, but the average listener is just looking for a good song. Recently, I went back and listened to a recording on a major label from many years ago that featured piano and vocalist. I always loved the song and the piano. But the truth is, I wouldn't settle for that piano sound coming out of my Kronos.

I once had a guest musician play my Kronos. I really was into how he sounded playing piano on it. After the gig, I checked to see which piano he was using. It was one of the germans that I never use. I played it again, but the timbre just doesn't connect with me. I still don't use it even though I thought it was great when he played it.

Having come to age professionally in the late 80's/early 90's, I was constantly on the prowl for "the best piano." Every manufacturer was coming out with new samples and instruments almost yearly. Today, most digitals sound better than anything we had then and certainly better than most uprights with a mic in front of them. I tend to obsess less and play more.
_________________
Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49