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Bad News : Karma software does not work anymore
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Liviou2004
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Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 1134
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject: Bad News : Karma software does not work anymore Reply with quote

Hello,
Perhaps you did already know, perhaps Stephen Kay has already put a thread.
If not, I have learnt that the Karma Software is not supported anymore : https://www.karma-lab.com/karmasoft/windows10-2004.html

I wonder about people who buy it just before this Windows update !

Hope Stephen will work on the next software.
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1211
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know when it became the expectation that hundreds of thousands of software developers would update their software every six months to meet the whims of operating system developers, but that seems to have unfortunately become the norm.

An operating system should provide a stable base to run applications. That is an operating system’s main purpose. The fact that macOS, Windows, Android and iOS change so regularly now, and break application compatibility so regularly, should not fall on application developer’s shoulders to mitigate.

It used to be the case that you could install an operating system and get several years of compatibility between hardware, OS and applications before even havi mg the option to upgrade. Now there’s updates are thrust upon us monthly.

I hate IT so much.
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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Liviou2004
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Joined: 20 Feb 2017
Posts: 1134
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
I don’t know when it became the expectation that hundreds of thousands of software developers would update their software every six months to meet the whims of operating system developers, but that seems to have unfortunately become the norm.


That has always been the case, since the first computer has been made : the developpers must adapt to the machine, not the reverse !!
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kronoskarma



Joined: 24 Jan 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Lutz, FL

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the case of the Karma software, it's using libraries that are also likely old and not updated (for graphics, I assume) and perhaps cannot be re-compiled. It may use other technologies that cannot be updated and so there is no reason to re-compile it to current. It may also be because Stephen Kay is done and retired. Whatever the reason, you will have to use an older computer to run it.

I have a older Mac Book Pro, and so I can buy the Kronos version and run it because it is a 2010 Mac Book Pro and will run the older software and can never be updated to current. It's the only advantage of having an older Mac. As far as PCs, you would have to find an older PC and somehow not update it, which is hard since it is insanely automatic and does not care what you want. It will update it regardless of you - since version 8.1.

Mike
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The machines aren’t really changing that much at all. The Intel x86 and AMD64 instruction sets remain backwards compatible (unlike ARM64). Useful software is dying because operating systems are adding pointless new features, and needlessly deprecating features that useful applications rely on.
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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bpoodoo
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Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Posts: 248
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the computer hell the sorcerers at Microsoft (Windows), Apple (iOS), and Google (Android) have conjured up for us.

Scenarios like this typify the concept of the "software half-life." That is, without active maintenance and porting, after a certain amount of time software will simply stop working due to the changes in OS, API, or external library dependencies.

The software halflife has been getting shorter and shorter in recent years, and I think that's by design. We're being pushed more and more to subscription services. If you want things to continue to work, you gotta keep paying for it.

The golden age of computers for me was in the 80s. Operating systems were in ROM. Every time you start your computer, you're starting from scratch, just like it was brand new. There were no viruses, no spam, no malware. I have two such computers up in my attic, an Apple ][+ and an Atari ST. Every few years I drag them out, load up software on floppy disks, either commercial or something I wrote, just to see that it still works. And it does.

For all of their glitz and potential, I have resisted DAWs, VSTs or anything else that requires me to connect an external computer, tablet or phone to my keyboard. For me, if the function is not inside the keyboard, it doesn't exist. It's not worth the extra stress to maintain external device configuration and software, compounded by the uncertainty of whether it's going to work at all after a required update.

And stay off my lawn!
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KingKronos
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Joined: 02 Jan 2021
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also the option of spinning up a virtual machine with the OS you need.

Chances are, if you're one of the few brave enough to tackle the complex and cryptic software that is KARMA, then you likely already know how to spin up a VM as needed.
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kronoskarma



Joined: 24 Jan 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Lutz, FL

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bpoodoo wrote:
Welcome to the computer hell the sorcerers at Microsoft (Windows), Apple (iOS), and Google (Android) have conjured up for us.

Scenarios like this typify the concept of the "software half-life." That is, without active maintenance and porting, after a certain amount of time software will simply stop working due to the changes in OS, API, or external library dependencies.

The software halflife has been getting shorter and shorter in recent years, and I think that's by design. We're being pushed more and more to subscription services. If you want things to continue to work, you gotta keep paying for it.

The golden age of computers for me was in the 80s. Operating systems were in ROM. Every time you start your computer, you're starting from scratch, just like it was brand new. There were no viruses, no spam, no malware. I have two such computers up in my attic, an Apple ][+ and an Atari ST. Every few years I drag them out, load up software on floppy disks, either commercial or something I wrote, just to see that it still works. And it does.

For all of their glitz and potential, I have resisted DAWs, VSTs or anything else that requires me to connect an external computer, tablet or phone to my keyboard. For me, if the function is not inside the keyboard, it doesn't exist. It's not worth the extra stress to maintain external device configuration and software, compounded by the uncertainty of whether it's going to work at all after a required update.

And stay off my lawn!


I had both and LOVED my Atari TT music computer. I also had a Apple IIe and a Apple II gs.

Those were great times! Reading (and writing articles for) Softside magazine, going to computer clubs with my Apple by my side.

The closest things we have to that now are these forums and discord channels - just not the same.

Mike
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Korg Karma
Korg M3 Expanded
Korg Kronos Titanium
Yamaha Tyros 5
Arturia MicroFreak
M-Audio Oxygen 61
Akai Force
Roland MC-707
1010music Black Box
Zoom Arq 48
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Peas&Carrots
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Joined: 25 Jun 2013
Posts: 157
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Hindsight (or maybe not!) too much reliance is placed on integration with computers for keyboard functions that should be on the keyboard itself. EVERYTHING should be possible on the keyboard (other than midi drivers or FTP services) if it isn't then don't count on it working next year/month/week!

Korg should have stuck a great big multi touch screen on Krons and integrated all the software then there would be none of this partial redundancy - to quote Bert Smorenburg re the Motif "it's all in the machine!"

At least there are work arounds - just be glad you didn't buy a Virus Rolling Eyes
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LivePsy
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Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good riddance to KARMA. Forced Korg to remove its wonderful Triton style programmable arpeggiator and we spent years pretending that KARMA could do what the Triton arp did. KARMA is a party trick, let's get back to making arp sequences.
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gminorcoles



Joined: 09 Apr 2019
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LivePsy wrote:
Good riddance to KARMA. Forced Korg to remove its wonderful Triton style programmable arpeggiator and we spent years pretending that KARMA could do what the Triton arp did. KARMA is a party trick, let's get back to making arp sequences.


yes while Karma is impressive in a way, it is a nightmare of complexity and non-friendly interface. I am not sure I would want it gone, but I really wish Kronos had the Triton arp and sequencer, and could build on that. I really hate having a dead 3rd party tool inside my Kronos
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LivePsy
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Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can't have been hard to keep the old arpeggiator and I believe Kaye required Korg to remove it. What we got isn't an arpeggiator.
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KingKronos
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Joined: 02 Jan 2021
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pull up an INIT program and turn on KARMA. Go to the control surface, and put the Note Range to something under 30. Instant normal arp.

Duration control is the same as arp gate.

Rhythm pattern at 0 makes the normal expected arp sound.
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KingKronos
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Joined: 02 Jan 2021
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gminorcoles wrote:
LivePsy wrote:
Good riddance to KARMA. Forced Korg to remove its wonderful Triton style programmable arpeggiator and we spent years pretending that KARMA could do what the Triton arp did. KARMA is a party trick, let's get back to making arp sequences.


yes while Karma is impressive in a way, it is a nightmare of complexity and non-friendly interface. I am not sure I would want it gone, but I really wish Kronos had the Triton arp and sequencer, and could build on that. I really hate having a dead 3rd party tool inside my Kronos


I watched some of Charles Ferraro's tutorials on KARMA. Looks to me even more complicated than figuring out KARMA onboard. I'd rather experiment with things on the Kronos since I don't use a computer for music anyway.

The KARMA wiki has some good tips. I think I understand KARMA enough now to use it as a normal arp, to switch scenes, to reroute MIDI channels, and to do a few other tricks not related to arps. But even then, there's enough KARMA presets to experiment with and come up with happy accidents.
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LivePsy
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Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingKronos wrote:
Pull up an INIT program and turn on KARMA. Go to the control surface, and put the Note Range to something under 30. Instant normal arp.

Duration control is the same as arp gate.

Rhythm pattern at 0 makes the normal expected arp sound.


Its nothing like the Triton arperggiator and we're over the apologism. You can get close but have to tweak note ranges and stuff. We need a graphic grid and repeatable results every time.
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