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[vp412]

I have question to those having classic piano training/experience/piano itself. What is "Half-Damper Working Range (HDWR, as I will abbreviate / explain it below)"?
I assume that we have the case of properly adjusted acoustic upright/grand.
I need to know positions of two points of right pedal tip movement, measured from the initial upper position (when pedal released), all in millimeters. HDWR is the range between two points, as I will explain/define below.
We start moving pedal from upper position. Nothing happen with dampers initially, but at some moment we begin to fill higher resistance in the pedal and dampers just start to move away from strings. It gives us upper point of HDWR. We continue moving pedal down. At some moment dampers no more touching strings (even oscillating ones). It is "lower point of HDWR".
We can continue to press pedal down, but nothing happen with sound, since dampers are moving far enough from strings.
Another way to find lower point of HDWR is to watch moving of dampers back toward strings (when we gradually release pedal from the lowest position). Initially dampers are far away from the strings (moving of pedal does not affect sound, again). At some moment dampers start to touch oscillating stings (starting from high frequency ones) and during further moving within HDWR we have nice gradual sound decay ending with bass strings.
Probably it is main the goal "half pedaling" - we release pedal slow for nice and slow sound decay. I want to know positions of above upper and lower points within full range of damper pedal movement (measurements on pedal tip in acoustic grand or upright). Probably each and every piano repair specialist knows about it.
I do have DS1H+K188, but before talking about my suspicions - I want to know how everything really should be. My DS1H alone works perfectly OK: resistance goes from 20 Kilo Ohms (in upper pedal position) to approximately 0 in lower point in nice and smooth way. Full moving range is about 21 millimeter.
In case of Kronos+DS1H we have upper and lower points of HDWR defined not in the pedal, but inside Kronos software (code related with translation of DS1H pedal raw input to 0-127 MIDI level). Problem should (or may be it should not, but it seems to me it definitely should) be fixed only in software. It is just definitions for two constants (probably one of them is 33 and another one is 66 for now). It can be very small software fix (just change 66 to 90). Everything is depending upon answer to my initial question: it can be real bug in the Kronos software. I do know very well where these two points are in my K188+DS1H, but again: I want to know where it really should be and hopefully everything will be better after very small fix.

[KK]

Hi there,

There is actually no true rule for APs and the damper pedal can be adjusted in different ways. The damper pedal is adjusted according the limits of the instrument, the current regulation and sometimes the pianist preferences - though many pianists, even famous, don't have a clue how it can be adjusted.

On almost all used pianos, damper regulation is not equal at all. First off, the damper mechanism can be "out of balance" and tilt on one side more than the other. Individual dampers can also be adjusted individually, but not always. This means that as you begin to push on the right pedal, dampers for the bass register might be released before or after the mid section or the higher register (until the keys where there is no damper), etc.

On many pianos, the right pedal doesn't lift the dampers until about one third through, this so that the pianist can sometimes rest a feet there without causing the effect. But this doesn't mean it is ideal at all, depending how heavy is the pedal when you push it (this is also true for the una corda on grand pianos). I tune and regulate my grand piano myself and purposely adjust the damper to be very sensitive. Dampers begin to be lifted at about one sixth of the pedal travel. And I also adjust dampers of all registers the same, which is almost never the case on most pianos. I want the bass and mid and high to stop at the same time. Test this on acoustic pianos and you will be surprised how totally unequal it often is (using for example a guitar pick to slide on the strings).

So in short, it can be very different from one AP to another. Dampers can begin to lift at one third, halfway, or before/after that, etc. Another reality is that no DP behaves like an AP. I like my DS1H, but in the beginning found it a bit too heavy to push. I could at some point open it and adjust the spring thing, but never found the time.

[vp412]

Hi KK, thanks for your reply
You wrote that you adjust pedal in your grand in a way "Dampers begin to be lifted at maybe one eighth of the pedal travel". If we assume that full moving range of pedal is 100%: upper point of the range going to be in 12.5%. There is general/reasonable rule to adjust lower point of pedal full moving range: at the moment wheh you begin to fill even small resistance near lower end of full pedal moving range - all dampers should be completely out of touch with (oscillating) strings. You keep pedal pressed (unnecessary hard) - you have full sustain. I did even hear that adjustment of pedal taking place exactly in the lower point, while upper point will be set as-is. You can positon "the range" up or down, but it is not so easy to adjust the length of the range due to lever ratios and so on.
It looks reasonable for me: when you start releasing properly adjusted pedal - you immediately entering "Half Damper Working Range". Assuming this we may have your low point of the HDWR in 90-95%, we have HDWR=80% respectively. It is good.
When you releasing pedal - it is easy to catch this half-damping place, it is just there when you start moving pedal up. It can be in very bad situation when somebody adjust pedal in way, when we have long "lower backlash". It is hard to catch start of "half damper working range" when you releasing pedal. If length of the "HDWR" is short - we have almost simple On/Off pedal. My measurements of DS1H+Kronos and MIDI monitor shows: 33% in upper backlash, 33% in H-D working range and again about 33% in lower backlash (idle movement). The last one is bad.
Basically pedal is working almost as On/Off pedal. It is not only my own opinion. Somebody wrote in recent post about DS1H: "I then bought a WTB-005 sustain pedal for AUS$30 and they worked much longer and are just fine. Korg DS-1H is totally overprized". It means: he uses simple On/Off WTB-005 and he never did even fill that DS1H is true half-dumper pedal. I believe that problem in the working range: you use in your grand range abour 80%, while in DS1H it is just 33% (just 7 millimeters in the middle) and in addition to this small range you have to catch it after another 7 millimeters above low point of of DS1H.
I have simple question: is it true that it is much more easy for you to play with "half-pedalization" on your grand, than doing the same in Kronos ?
Did you ever try to play Korg SV-1 with DS2H pedal ? Somebody told me that this DS2H with SV-1 works much better than Kronos+DS1H. Note: DS2H gives just 4 levels of resistance: infinity, 20K, 10K and 0. You can't use one pedal instead of another, since DS1H gives continous set of values and in theory it should be better.
In reality it looks almost like driving car with acceleration pedal having just two positions: no pedal pressed and full throttle. You start pedal pressing and no effect, you continue to press pedal and in some small range in the middle you got above full throttle... Probably everything can be fixed by changing two lines in Kronos software.

[KK]

Hi again,

Very interesting discussion, by the way.

Actually, to make sure, I went to try my grand and review the beginning of damper lifting at 1/6 of the travel (instead of 1/8 ).

Full sustain is achieved early on my AP, around halfway. The remaining part is just the same, at full sustain. This is because of my particular preference and the way I use my right foot. On most pianos though, again, everything happens later in the pedal travel.

Also, I set dampers on all registers on mine to stop at the same time, which causes a narrower "half-sustain" section on the pedal. But many APs are set with a wider "half-sustain" range, with (usually, but this can vary a lot) the bass section vibrating first, then the mid and treble, etc. In order words, on such pianos you could for example keep a bass note with more sustain, but less sustain applied in the mid/treble for harmony changes. But I don't like this and I prefer ensuring a "clearer" or less muddy sound when using the damper pedal.

Now comparing with the Kronos, on my AP the section to control "half-sustain" is much narrower than on the DS1H. Which is also similar on the majority of APs. Remember no DPs and their accessories really work like APs.

What you mention about "to catch start of half damper working range" is not really easy on most APs and takes a little while for even good pianists to find out when trying different APs. So I find the Korg DS1H a lot easier to control compared to APs. But... Maybe it is the way the calibration perceived my DS1H when playing my Kronos back when I plugged it the first time.

In short, I think that half-sustain/damper control on APs is more difficult to achieve, and with a narrower travel section on the pedal, compared to my current calibration of Kronos-2 + DS1H. Another question is : is there a difference of damper pedal software calibration between the Kronos generations ? Maybe. I think you mentioned yours is a Kronos first gen.

[vp412]

I do have Kronos first gen K1-88, but I think that upper and lower points of pedal working range defined purely in software, which is the same, along with analog-digital schematics to measure pedal resistance in Kronos. Pedal is exactly the same 20 to 0 KOhm DS1H, it is the most important fact.
I did measure my DS1H after calibration. If we take pedal travel as 1.0, we have upper backlash as 1/3, working range also 1/3 and lower backlash (idle run) is another 1/3 of full range. I believe that my problem in "catch start of half damper working range" is exactly because of too long lower idle run.
You can try to re-ajust your grand to see will it be better for you to have smaller lower idle run (I mean better catch the "working range"). You wrote that you have upper idle run as 1/6. Assuming full range is about 20 mm - it is about 3.3 millimeters. I think it is too low. Repair manual for Stainway is recommending about 10 mm for upper idle run. Real goal (common rule) is to have full sustain (dampers away from string) in the lower point (you don't need to press too hard at this point) with minimal lower iddle run. You always can push pedal harder and make lower idle run 2 or 3 mm longer, but it is not important since dampers already away from strings.
It seems to me with shorter lower idle run it is better to catch "working range". As to upper backlash: normally you place your foot on the pedal until it starts to resist and do not move it further down, you are at the beginning of "working range" at this point. Upper idle run is not a big problem. More important to catch lower end of "working range". Bigger "upper working range" (even about 10 mm) will make it much easy, since "working range" starts very soon when you start moving your foot up from low point.
You can try fix it in your grand, but unfortunately in Kronos it can be achived only by software fix.

[KK]

I really like my grand piano just like that - again, I purposely adjusted the damper pedal to fit my needs. Note that I also regulated my AP soft pedal to achieve a gradual change instead of the usual on/off. To achieve this, you have to align all hammers differently so that you truly lose a whole string for all registers except the low bass. Result of this is you can achieve a more accentuated change of timbre pushing the left pedal gradually. Fully depressed, my AP sounds closer to a harp than if regulated like most grand pianos and simply hitting in the parts with more felt between the used areas of the hammers. But I digress...

Travel distance from up to completely down on my AP three pedals is about 14 mm. On the other hand, the Korg DS1H is instead around 18 mm, so of longer travel. Finally about a possible Kronos fix, you might try to put a variable resistor somewhere in the pedal connections to see if it gets you closer to what you would prefer. I found out how to customize the aftertouch circuit on my Kronos, but I've never studied the damper one though.

[vp412]

Actually I already did try to add variable resistor between DS1H and Kronos. I did hesitate to cut pedal wire and I did solder "pedal cable extender": box with variable resistor, TRS plug and socket. "Fruitful Debut Idea" was to have extra 10 KOhms in addition to 20 KOhms in DS1H, I did draw KOhms scale around resistor handle with arrow. Based on theoretical calculations I did expect that 33% upper idle run will be stretched to 50% pedal movement along with stretching of the "working range" to another 50% of pedal travel range. Based on calculations "lower idle run" should be very small.
During calibration I press pedal making it change resistance from 20KOhms to 0 along with resistor rotation from 10 KOhms (slightly less) to 0 and move everything back to 20+10 KOhms. In theory everything should be perfect, "working range" should be stretched and moved down to make me happy.
Unfortunately I was hit by reality. Kronos did not want to calibrate on 30 KOhms (instead of 20 KOhms in DS1H alone). After such failed calibration damper pedal did not work at all. I found that maximal resistance for calibration is just about 23 KOhms, almost no gain in "good direction". Again: it could be very nice to have it fixed in software, maybe even to have option for positioning mentioned 3 ranges within pedal full travel range.
Now about real acoustic grand pedal regulation: the way how you regulate it (I assume you have proper classic piano training/experience and you do it in good way for you) and my own pure speculation about "what pedal can make me happy", everything is based on general mechanic. Nevertheless it can happen that no big contradiction between two opinions. I want to know what is "working range length" and what is "low idle run length" in your grand. It seems to me (again, based just on my mechanical speculations) that during pedal regulation you can move "Half Damping Working Range" up or down within pedal's full travel range, but length of this working range is defined by levers ratios in your grand and it is not so easy to be changed. If it happens that length of "lower idle run" in your grand is relatively small - I think no big contradiction between my speculations about "good for me adjustment" and your actual pedal adjustments in your grand.