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korg1 Approved Merchant
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 Posts: 955 Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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As long as you RE-SAMPLE it through your audio card,with the settings you want,the keys and velocity you want,through a Neve Comp with settings you want it simply won't be the same samples anymore,and i never said take the actual samples,you can't cause they are in a monolith file anyway,i said re-sample the sound.
If you use them for your own use, i don't think you will have a problem anyway.
If for example you resample a hardware Roland synth, you will consider it piracy? I don'think so ....
Maybe i am wrong,but that's why sample-robot or extreme sample converter are for .
And to answer at your thought, American Grand is like 49 GB,ok?
if you re-sample 50mb, and i say it again : re-sample,then it's not a problem.
It would be a problem if you decrypt for example the monolith files,export them and sell the whole library in kontakt format (for example) as yours,then it's a huge problem.....i never said something like that,not even close .
if you take my material and resell it,then it's a problem,
but if you open it i n a DAW and find let's say a phrase or riff you like and re-write it on a new project,or even copy 50 notes out of 250.000,then it's not a problem. I don't know any other way to explain it to you . _________________
https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx
Last edited by korg1 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Korghelper Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 584
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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‘Maybe I’m wrong’?
How about checking..? Take you a few clicks to go to Synthogy’s site and look at their license agreement. I’ll be surprised if they allow you to copy the samples and distribute it as a different product even if you run it through a compressor.
There’s a reason YOU have a copyright on your site... so uninformed people don’t think they have the right to do anything they want to with YOUR hard work. I am astounded you don’t extend that logic to other people’s hard work. |
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korg1 Approved Merchant
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 Posts: 955 Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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you talk about taking the actual samples from somewhere....i never mention or said so.... we talk about different things.
And you still haven't answer my question :
Do you consider piracy if i resample a bass program sound from pa4x through a neve comp for example? _________________
https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx |
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Korghelper Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 584
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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If you break into a bank, it doesn’t matter how you break in... Just because a tool exists for you to easily copy samples doesn’t mean that copying the samples, even if you truncate or bit change them, is actually legal.
Whether a company decides that their work is okay to copy is entirely up to them. In the case of hardware, mostly this is done to legacy synths no longer in production. But sample and copy every sound in say a Genos and try to widely distribute it, you are sure as sh*t going to get a desist notice from Yamaha!
In the case of currently available commercial software libraries, why would you possibly think they would not mind? The fact you haven’t bothered to check their copyright notice tells me you probably already know, deep down.
To spell it out, what you did in that first post was the EXACT equivalent of me saying I’m going to pirate your entire commercial output and ask someone to change ONE note so it’s not yours any more. And then give it away to anyone who asks.
So, let me get that straight... you are OK with this? |
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korg1 Approved Merchant
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 Posts: 955 Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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We are not on the same page pal,unfortunately.
I never said or referred to COPY material in any way , or distribute anything.
If you can understand the Re-sample term, or ''for your own use'' ,
then we can talk again.
Why you believe taking my entire commercial output and just change a note is the same with Resampling?
It would be the same if someone would COPY the actual 48Gb samples of the library and distribute it in either way.
we talk about Resample, different sound ,different actual samples,not digital sign,and some Mb's instead of Gb's.
And we always talk about personal use.
I would like to know what instruments you have sampled yourself on your pa4x .... _________________
https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx |
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karmathanever Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Posts: 10393
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:12 am Post subject: |
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This is an extremely grey area for sure.
If you use a "real" physical instrument for sampling then I guess that should be OK - OR does the instrument manufacturer have any rights?????
If you use a sample-based product (e.g. from NI package) and create samples from that for others to use then it becomes questionable - whether for money or not - the question is answered by the manufacturer's copyright requirements.
This is much like the "copyright" of styles and if they can be used/recorded/shared.
I also think this should be a separate topic if anyone wants to get into this yet again ... it has been discussed many times before
Cheers
Pete _________________ PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
------------------------------------------------------------------
## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
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korg1 Approved Merchant
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 Posts: 955 Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:15 am Post subject: |
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I personally don't mind if it comes from a hammer hitting on strings ,as long as it sounds and feel right.
American Grand was just a comparison measure for quality for my taste.
Never talked about distribution or simillar,just that it's the only piano that
it's worthy for someone to sample it.
I am happy with my pa4x piano,and i don't want to spend sample memory for a piano sound,cause i know it's impossible to have such quality in only a few Mb's .
it's wiser to use the I-phone's grand piano for example,plug it on your pa4x and you are ready.
But what i really don't like is pa4'x converters.It would sound great though with better converters,that's my opinion for that .
So,what i really want to say since the beginning,is that actually piano sounds on pa4x sound ok,
the fact that on stage don't sound ok,or even worst ,they don't feel the same,it's because of it's converters .
By using an Eq though it can be quite pleasing on stage,i don't have anymore problem with my piano sound on stage,
it sounds nice as long as Maxx Audio settings are right .
Can't say the same for all factory piano sounds,but there is a good level,and they are all playable. _________________
https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx |
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AntonySharmman Approved Merchant
Joined: 16 Oct 2010 Posts: 3585 Location: Hellas
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:33 am Post subject: |
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karmathanever wrote: | If you use a "real" physical instrument for sampling then I guess that should be OK |
Nope Pete , even this is not allowed for commercial use , special license is required , for instance Korg or me do not use commercially
the actual name "Steinway GRD" but German grand instead ...
On the other hand , VTS companies do not actually worry for users re-sampling since in all latest enhanced GUI & players you can
not use encrypted sample containers and you can't capture articulations with simple application utilities like ESC or similar when
script is involved and activates them in polyphony and via hidden controllers , therefore you might think that when capturing a
single velocity note all are fine but this is not accurate 'cause after re-sampling a VST acoustic instrument then it's not anymore
playable compared to original one ...
It's good to experiment in sampling , it can be easy for simple synth tunes , but concerning complex acoustic instruments the
workflow is very complex with many involved secret parameters !
I own the mentioned Steinway black 4/4 and when tried to sample it before 25 years without the required (later) deep knowledge
and sophisticated lab gear , the result was awful compared to real thing , so let experts do the job for you and just play your Music. _________________ Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer
PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook
Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V |
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korg1 Approved Merchant
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 Posts: 955 Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Ten or 20 years ago that would be fine,
it was XP-80's piano ok or SRX-02 or SRX-11 ,
but nowdays there are many options for piano sound,
sample based or physical modeling,and again,
if you sample any of them it still will not be not even close the original,
because all those reasons Antony well said .
So when talking about sampled piano sound on pa4x :
1)you have either to resample a V- piano,Steinway or your favorite piano if you want to have the best piano sound nowdays
2)Polyphony will blown out
if for example you have managed to get an 24layers sampled piano
3) sample memory is not enough unless you cut out the samples and just keep the 5 or 10% of the normal sound. _________________
https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx |
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Korghelper Platinum Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 584
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Let us be quite clear about what automated resampling tools do...
They take an existing, most likely very expensive sample library that someone has the key to, then automatically records each note (or as many notes as the user wants) at multiple velocities (set by the user) without going out of the digital domain. In practice, one usually disables any reverb or processing to get the straightest copy of the sound possible.
There is VERY little difference between this and straightforward copying of the raw samples themselves, certainly not enough for it to be considered legal.
Now yes, should an OWNER of the original sampled set decide to do this FOR HIMSELF ALONE this could probably argued as 'fair use', but even this could be specifically excluded if the content producers copyright notice specifically exclude it Most software will not even run until you click on the 'agree' button in the EULA, so you can't wiggle out of it.
But to suggest or ask that an owner should go ahead and do it anyway and ask that it is distributed is to condone something that is most likely illegal.
Simple question.... Have you contacted Synthogy about whether what you suggested would be legal, or have you attempted to find their copyright agreement and read it? Because if you haven't, I'm guessing you already know the answer but don't want to face the truth. Their work is as easily copyrightable as yours is. And as easily copied and given away illegally. You are on a slippery slope suggesting that it's OK to copy other people's work. Yours might be next. |
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korg1 Approved Merchant
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 Posts: 955 Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Ok,it is clear now that you don't understand anything i said or what Antony said.
-If it's illegal for you to "sample" a synth you own for your own personal use, then likewise, it would have to be illegal for you to even record it digitally.
- I never talk about redistributing a sample library based on a sample based instrument.
- These libraries are encrypted and like Antony well said :
''you can't capture articulations with simple application utilities like ESC or similar when
script is involved and activates them in polyphony and via hidden controllers , therefore you might think that when capturing a
single velocity note all are fine but this is not accurate 'cause after re-sampling a VST acoustic instrument then it's not anymore
playable compared to original one ... ''
-Therefore ,your Resampling will be like day and night with the actual samples ,maybe ok to use it on keyboard,but sure not for studio .
-even if you had the actual samples of a 50Gb library,they would be useless without the scripts,even if your pa4x could stream the samples straight from disk .
- So,what you thing automated resampling tool do is totally false ,
and to answer at your last question :
No,i didn't contacted Synthogy cause i don't plan to resample anything,
when i feel i need to resample something for distribution i will,i won't use the grey areas,and believe me there are plenty.
But i won't ask anyone to resample synths or libraries i own for personal use ....so get off my back pal.... i find my styles on sets on internet ,or even my Triton sounds on other models like m3 and kronos nowdays,so i am not NEXT, it happened a long time ago ,so please get rid that '' show off'' of yours on the post . _________________
https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx |
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Sam CA Platinum Member
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 3990 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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It'd be an EPIC ending to this heated legal debate if it turns out you two don't even play piano in the first place. _________________ Sam
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karmathanever Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Posts: 10393
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Sam CA wrote: | It'd be an EPIC ending to this heated legal debate if it turns out you two don't even play piano in the first place. |
+1
(...and whatever happened to shawnstanley123) _________________ PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
------------------------------------------------------------------
## Please stay safe ##
...and play lots of music
------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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korg1 Approved Merchant
Joined: 17 Nov 2002 Posts: 955 Location: http://pasongstyles.com/
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:27 am Post subject: |
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I an not a classical Pianist, i do have a Diploma in Counterpoint and my piano skills are at a good level as i was working with most of the famous singers in my country for over 20-25years.
I started using arrangers again after 2011-2012,
cause i could feel that the global economy is unstable,
and that i had to get ready myself,
to be able to work alone or with only 1singer or guitarist if needed,instead of 9-17 people bands i used to work with.
But that has nothing to do really with what is going on here.
What we didn't even mention here is that even if you manage to have the best piano sound ever made,on pa4x
it will be totally useless because of pa4x's polyphony,unless you play just the piano,without rythms/styles ,even then i am not so sure....
If you use factory pianos for example on some styles,they get out of polyphony if there is much data already in styles. _________________
https://pasongstyles.com/
https://soundcloud.com/korgfx |
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ime95mos Junior Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2019 Posts: 64
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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It's always nice to have the perfect Multi Sample Piano sound, but me personally I'm more impressed by the way the player can play. Sometimes a non perfect sound can sound so amazing if the player really can play, but I do get your points.. |
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