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Calling Montage/MODX Owners. Compare/contrast
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:54 pm    Post subject: Calling Montage/MODX Owners. Compare/contrast Reply with quote

I am interested in your experience as a Kronos and Montage/MODX owner.

MODX is 1 year old and a popular board. I am more than casually interested in it.

How do you lucky owners balance your time with these great boards ?

Can you say your usage is 50/50 ? Or does Kronos get less used, lets say 20% of your time ?

I am somewhat familiar of the strengths of each board. I definitely admire the acoustic sound quality, the pianos, guitars, of MODX/Montage.

Appreciate your insight, music application/usage and enthusiasm as owners of both boards [ Kronos and the MODX/Montage]

Thanks !
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Greg,

After owning my MODX8 for just short of a year now and the initial novelty, I've fallen back to a long term proportion of approx 70% Kronos and 30% MODX. This is the share time between those 2 keyboards, however that 100% is a proportion of a greater share to my other gear.

That isn't to say that I consider the MODX any less for its purpose, rather my weighting is due to the style of music I tend to focus on and the libraries I choose for my Kronos. I enjoy the MODX for the different dynamics it provides with its accompaniment, and it's strengths for some solo acoustic instruments, especially guitars. I still prefer the Kronos pianos, though I am currently enjoying their dynamics played with my Kawai MP11SE. I've still not ventured very far into MODX programming as I'm still getting a lot of satisfaction from the enormous range of performances, with only slight tweaks to some of them.

The GHS keybed has settled down, with no more troubles......and after all this time, I find it quite ok to use, with no specific gripes. ( I don't expect it to be anything more than the level of quality it is though).

The touch screen is excellent to use, and in my opinion, the Kronos touchscreen is also still excellent.

I still don't view any of my gear as a replacement for any other. I view them like having a collection of unique musical instruments, and tend to power up which ever keyboard's sound I feel like using at the time.


One more point to note...
I think if my Kronos only had the default factory library loaded, my proportion may be less in favor of the MODX, but for me it's the 3rd party libraries which have transcended my Kronos to still being my favorite.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey brother, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think our music production approach is similar .
For sure, you have many more tools than I.

The life cycle of GHS is a big deal, good to read it has settled in.

I like guitar almost as much as piano. Thats 1 reason why I have the FA and MODX is attractive. And when I compose a song based on guitar I receive more enthusiasm. My Space on Earth and Save Your Pennies are examples.
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Moonglow



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for starting this thread, GregC. I’ve been eyeing a MODX 88 for a while now, which I would largely use as a lighter-weight gigging keyboard. My current rig is a Kronos 88 (original) and Jupiter-80, and while I love it, my band has recently been playing venues where load-in/set-up have been a royal PITA. So I’ve been thinking of pairing a MODX 88 with my Kronos 2 61 (which largely just sits in my music room), and pull my Invisible stand out of retirement. A concern is if I could find a way to live without some of the JP-80 programs I’ve become fond of, as well as the prospect of spending hours and hours re-creating hundreds of live set-ups on an operating system with which I am not at all familiar. I would use the MODX 88 to control the K61, which kind of sucks since I know how to use the Kronos as a controller like the back of my hand.

I am encouraged to hear that the MODX has good acoustic sounds, for which I currently rely on the JP-80’s Supernatural programs. But I also need a ton of synth sounds, which the JP-80 has in spades. The good news is that I’ve seen some third-party MODX libraries which may provide a lot of the synth programs I need for the classic rock and 80’s tunes my band plays.

While I will probably wait until NAMM concludes before making any new purchase, in the interim I look forward to hearing how folks have fared with a Kronos + MODX rig.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, wait until NAMM- 3 months away.

I had no problem with the 88 MODX keybed when I demo'd at GC.

Its remotely possible MODX could be your go to board for tighter/quick gigs.
I err on the side of minimal.

I am a home studio/song maker so my requirements are different than the gigging keyboardist. I would combine instrument strengths when recording.

Just the same, we want the best of all worlds. I think Korg is the wild card for NAMM 2020.
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moonglow wrote:
I would use the MODX 88 to control the K61, which kind of sucks since I know how to use the Kronos as a controller like the back of my hand.


Just a further comment on doing this......

I've tried the MODX as a controller for the Kronos also. When it comes to pianos, (which is one of my main focuses), one thing about it seems to be the velocity curves. It seems to have quite a "dead" feel compared to my more expensive keybeds when controlling external instruments, including vst's.
What I mean by that, is an apparent lack of sensitivity or resolution. When setting the global response to light, it is a little too "light" and I can't control the low velocities very well. On the wide setting, the low velocity area is still lacking sensitivity.

It's less of an issue for the internal MODX sounds, as each part has individual velocity curve settings to a greater depth than the global settings.

When I check the MIDI streaming numbers, the range seems to be there, but the curve, rather than linear seems to be concave. After a bit of getting used to, it is kind of ok.


On a side note,
I'm of the belief that the acceptable feel of a keybed, needs to be properly evaluated "live" so the velocity response is included. So many times I read peoples' comments on hitting a few keys in the shop without any sound playing, and deciding which keybed they like the feel of the best. The psycho-acoustic feedback is such a big part of the evaluation, that you really need to be considering the whole experience to decide if it suits you or not, let alone the time to get used to a keybed you may not initially think is ok. This includes adjusting velocity curves to get closer to what you like. It's all very well for many weighted digital keys to feel close to a real piano, and a very few are pretty close, but the whole feedback experience of acoustics pianos is what sets them apart.


You may largely favor playing other non keyboard instruments and synths sounds, so the velocity issue may not be of any consequence. I don't tend to use the MODX realtime knobs to control Kronos parameters, but you shouldn't find the menu items very difficult to set for external control on the MODX.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This possibly isn't an exciting observation- I think Kronos is a highly capable midi controller.

99% of my effort is in SEQ mode. I can easily adjust velocity curves on Kronos to make my FA-07 pianos more 'playable '.

I use 3 or 4 velocity [ on Kronos ] to manage FA pianos.

When using Kronos pianos or other sounds, '6 ' works for me.

No right or wrong#, just what works for my stuff.
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
I think Kronos is a highly capable midi controller.


Totally agree.

The Kronos has the most configurablity as a master controller out of any of the gear I own. When showing people my rig, I point out that my Kronos 2 88 is "the mothership" for good reason.

I'm not really putting the MODX8 down....I'm just putting it in it's place. Most people will have bought it for the sound and it's motion functions. Its hardware aspect is, as we know, a cut down version of the Montage, and it is still excellent for the money.

I haven't tried the balanced action of the Montage 88, but I would bet it would perform to the price, as does the Kronos.

If I was just starting out, and wanted a master weighted action keyboard controller synth, I wouldn't buy the MODX88, but at the level it is pitched, I still think it usable.

I have jiggered around with the velocities a bit, by looping them through a MIDI velocity modifier in Logic Pro, and with a curve adjustment have got excellent results, so a software upgrade from Yamaha would potentially solve my take on the issue. Though I doubt the impending update will include this.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Greg,

I'm interested in this thread because, like you, the MODX could have been a future purchase in complement of my gear.
But the lack of aftertouch is a real point for me. When I'm playng on a light keyboard, I do need this essential expressivity provided by aftertouch.

On my opinion, its impossible to play guitar (for instance) on a keyboard with good sensations without an aftertouch (I'm just talking of my own experience).

So, all in all, the MODX seems to be a good affordable unit with interesting sounds, for sure. But, I'm quite sure I would feel restrained in expressivity.

(I think incomprehensible that such firms as Yamaha, Korg and so on, are producing excellent synths with such a lack : Korg Prologue, Kronos LS, Yamaha MODX, etc...they don't have aftertouch ! As if keyboard players were not interesting in this expressive tool any longer !).

I'm sure it is not a matter of price : just have a look at the Behringer Deepmind 12 !
By the way, Greg, have you ever put your attention to this synth ?
Our friend, Mike Conway, has one and he has been very pleased with it.

Lastly, there another point : are you sure that the MODX is able to produce sounds the Kronos isn't ?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
Hi Greg,

I'm interested in this thread because, like you, the MODX could have been a future purchase in complement of my gear.
But the lack of aftertouch is a real point for me. When I'm playng on a light keyboard, I do need this essential expressivity provided by aftertouch.

On my opinion, its impossible to play guitar (for instance) on a keyboard with good sensations without an aftertouch (I'm just talking of my own experience).

So, all in all, the MODX seems to be a good affordable unit with interesting sounds, for sure. But, I'm quite sure I would feel restrained in expressivity.

(I think incomprehensible that such firms as Yamaha, Korg and so on, are producing excellent synths with such a lack : Korg Prologue, Kronos LS, Yamaha MODX, etc...they don't have aftertouch ! As if keyboard players were not interesting in this expressive tool any longer !).

I'm sure it is not a matter of price : just have a look at the Behringer Deepmind 12 !
By the way, Greg, have you ever put your attention to this synth ?
Our friend, Mike Conway, has one and he has been very pleased with it.

Lastly, there another point : are you sure that the MODX is able to produce sounds the Kronos isn't ?


Hi Fred, excellent observations. Since I love guitar I will need to seriously test the MODX's lack of AT.

Somewhat related, I question if AT can be used with Kronos as master keyboard, midi'd to MODX ? I know, not a good work around.

Thanks for reminding me about Behtinger's DM12. I am still buried in Kronos and FA synth sounds. DM12 would have to inspire my song writing muse.

I did an acoustic instrument comparison with MODX vs Kronos. MODX is the winner. I am more demanding of realistic acoustic instruments.
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Moonglow



Joined: 10 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeltaJockey wrote:
If I was just starting out, and wanted a master weighted action keyboard controller synth, I wouldn't buy the MODX88, but at the level it is pitched, I still think it usable.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses, DeltaJockey. I would largely use the MODX as part of “B” rig at venues where load-in/set-up is quite arduous.

Also thanks for the information regarding the velocities, and if I do get a MODX I will be sure to audition it at a gig to ensure that it is expressive in a live setting. Regarding piano, I would use the MODX for APs, as I don’t run stereo, which IMHO, is needed for the Kronos pianos to sound decent (I currently have the Epic Grand samples, which feature a good mono patch, loaded into my K88). So I wouldn’t be triggering the Kronos APs from the MODX keybed.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Liviou2004 wrote:
Hi Greg,

I'm interested in this thread because, like you, the MODX could have been a future purchase in complement of my gear.
But the lack of aftertouch is a real point for me. When I'm playng on a light keyboard, I do need this essential expressivity provided by aftertouch.

On my opinion, its impossible to play guitar (for instance) on a keyboard with good sensations without an aftertouch (I'm just talking of my own experience).

So, all in all, the MODX seems to be a good affordable unit with interesting sounds, for sure. But, I'm quite sure I would feel restrained in expressivity.

(I think incomprehensible that such firms as Yamaha, Korg and so on, are producing excellent synths with such a lack : Korg Prologue, Kronos LS, Yamaha MODX, etc...they don't have aftertouch ! As if keyboard players were not interesting in this expressive tool any longer !).

I'm sure it is not a matter of price : just have a look at the Behringer Deepmind 12 !
By the way, Greg, have you ever put your attention to this synth ?
Our friend, Mike Conway, has one and he has been very pleased with it.

Lastly, there another point : are you sure that the MODX is able to produce sounds the Kronos isn't ?


Hi Fred, excellent observations. Since I love guitar I will need to seriously test the MODX's lack of AT.

Somewhat related, I question if AT can be used with Kronos as master keyboard, midi'd to MODX ? I know, not a good work around.

Thanks for reminding me about Behtinger's DM12. I am still buried in Kronos and FA synth sounds. DM12 would have to inspire my song writing muse.

I did an acoustic instrument comparison with MODX vs Kronos. MODX is the winner. I am more demanding of realistic acoustic instruments.


Hi Greg, if you do prefer MODX accoustic instruments rather than Kronos ones and need Aftertouch for a good play, I see one solution only : the Montage !

But there is perhaps another solution :

On my side, my opinon is that a good accoustic instrument on synth depends on two things : the best samples set as possible (why not a multi gigabytes for one acoustic guitar) and also and above all : the real way of playing this instrument. Indeed, we could get the best and biggest samples set of the world, if we are not able to adopt the good way of playing, we'll never get a good result.

With this in mind (but perhaps I'm wrong !) I consider that the result can be so good on the Kronos than on the MODX. (The Kronos A/D D/A converters are excellent). I'm sure that with an excellent acoustic folk guitar sample set (I don't know if it exists ?) the Kronos can deliver a quasi perfect guitar sound.
But, and here is the point where I wanted to go to, a quasi perfect way of playing is needed.
And there is perhaps a solution, be with Kronos or MODX : the Roli Seabord Rise. Listen to all the Marco Parisi performances like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fQbtp2BgY4
or that : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72RrqWC3vWc
and this one too, just for the fun : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1gZAif1qg4
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
GregC wrote:
Liviou2004 wrote:
Hi Greg,

I'm interested in this thread because, like you, the MODX could have been a future purchase in complement of my gear.
But the lack of aftertouch is a real point for me. When I'm playng on a light keyboard, I do need this essential expressivity provided by aftertouch.

On my opinion, its impossible to play guitar (for instance) on a keyboard with good sensations without an aftertouch (I'm just talking of my own experience).

So, all in all, the MODX seems to be a good affordable unit with interesting sounds, for sure. But, I'm quite sure I would feel restrained in expressivity.

(I think incomprehensible that such firms as Yamaha, Korg and so on, are producing excellent synths with such a lack : Korg Prologue, Kronos LS, Yamaha MODX, etc...they don't have aftertouch ! As if keyboard players were not interesting in this expressive tool any longer !).

I'm sure it is not a matter of price : just have a look at the Behringer Deepmind 12 !
By the way, Greg, have you ever put your attention to this synth ?
Our friend, Mike Conway, has one and he has been very pleased with it.

Lastly, there another point : are you sure that the MODX is able to produce sounds the Kronos isn't ?


Hi Fred, excellent observations. Since I love guitar I will need to seriously test the MODX's lack of AT.

Somewhat related, I question if AT can be used with Kronos as master keyboard, midi'd to MODX ? I know, not a good work around.

Thanks for reminding me about Behtinger's DM12. I am still buried in Kronos and FA synth sounds. DM12 would have to inspire my song writing muse.

I did an acoustic instrument comparison with MODX vs Kronos. MODX is the winner. I am more demanding of realistic acoustic instruments.


Hi Greg, if you do prefer MODX accoustic instruments rather than Kronos ones and need Aftertouch for a good play, I see one solution only : the Montage !

But there is perhaps another solution :

On my side, my opinon is that a good accoustic instrument on synth depends on two things : the best samples set as possible (why not a multi gigabytes for one acoustic guitar) and also and above all : the real way of playing this instrument. Indeed, we could get the best and biggest samples set of the world, if we are not able to adopt the good way of playing, we'll never get a good result.

With this in mind (but perhaps I'm wrong !) I consider that the result can be so good on the Kronos than on the MODX. (The Kronos A/D D/A converters are excellent). I'm sure that with an excellent acoustic folk guitar sample set (I don't know if it exists ?) the Kronos can deliver a quasi perfect guitar sound.
But, and here is the point where I wanted to go to, a quasi perfect way of playing is needed.
And there is perhaps a solution, be with Kronos or MODX : the Roli Seabord Rise. Listen to all the Marco Parisi performances like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fQbtp2BgY4
or that : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72RrqWC3vWc
and this one too, just for the fun : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1gZAif1qg4


Hi Fred, I agree with you. Montage has the features but it is way too much [ and expensive] keyboard for me to handle in my home studio.

My repetitive gripe, is I am not satisfied with Kronos factory guitars. The acoustics , in particular. There are 1 or 2 third party sample libs that improve but are not complete for my song writing purpose

I know what you are saying and have said similar, articulation has t be solved for realistic acoustic instruments.

Roli seems to be the best solution. I am concerned since this is a start up co. The 49 version is the best fit for my approach. a cheap way is to get a used 25, there are dozens on eBay- which suggests that the Roli did not work out for many, for whatever reason.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Hi Fred, I agree with you. Montage has the features but it is way too much [ and expensive] keyboard for me to handle in my home studio.

My repetitive gripe, is I am not satisfied with Kronos factory guitars. The acoustics , in particular. There are 1 or 2 third party sample libs that improve but are not complete for my song writing purpose

I know what you are saying and have said similar, articulation has t be solved for realistic acoustic instruments.

Roli seems to be the best solution. I am concerned since this is a start up co. The 49 version is the best fit for my approach. a cheap way is to get a used 25, there are dozens on eBay- which suggests that the Roli did not work out for many, for whatever reason.


Hi Greg,

For what I know, there are two ways of using Roli : either as a "simple" master keyboard or playing on its own software "EQUATOR".
I don't have a Roli, but I know that its configuration has to be accurate in order to get the best results. It is perhaps the reason why some people become discouraged and eventually sell it, perhaps.

Here are videos on using Roli with Kronos :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beR8N1iiB68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxJx60u7-A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A841BOSRO4

And this wonderful cover of Interstellar theme :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A841BOSRO4

I have found one video MODX + Roli :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRg7SeDDE4c
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Greg,

If you like so much guitar wouldn’t be better to buy one.
I have 2: acoustic Yamaha FG800 and Profile bass ( Made in Japan, it's a fender 'p' bass copy !, cheap and a very good one, see a pic : https://postimg.cc/BLdmx4MB ).

And I must tell you that my instruments are quite useful when a guitar is complex with all the kinds of phrasing articulations , I simply would not be able to recreate it on Kronos, or even Montage if I have. Not to mention that my Kronos cannot compete with my guitars regardless.
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