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M3M with external controller?

 
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SMUDGE



Joined: 19 Oct 2017
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:42 pm    Post subject: M3M with external controller? Reply with quote

Does anyone on here use an M3M with a non-Korg M3 midi keyboard, specifically the M3M sequencer? I am unable to send midi to any track other than 1. Changing the midi channel in Global does not alter this behavior. Changing the target track in the sequencer dropdown menu does not alter it either. I am using a very basic Fatar 88 key controller. The sequencer works fine when I control the M3M with a Roland MV-8800 sequencer determining the midi channel, but then there's no point in using the M3M's sequencer when I have the MV hooked up.
The M3M just doesn't work with my Fatar standalone as it should.
Is there a special setup in the sequencer for using a non M3 keybed?
Any help is greatly appreciated please.
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voip
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The MIDI channel on the external keyboard needs to be changed. Or the MIDI channel associated with the MIDI events coming from the keyboard could be changed e.g. by using a MIDI Solutions produc, such as their Router, Footswitch Controller, or Event Processor. The Footswitch Controller allows the MIDI channel to be changed by a pedal press.

.
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SMUDGE



Joined: 19 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the midi channel on the keyboard need to be changed according to each sequencer track?
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMUDGE wrote:
Does the midi channel on the keyboard need to be changed according to each sequencer track?


Short answer is yes. It depends on how the tracks are assigned on the P3 Track Param page. If you start with a blank song, then the MIDI channels will correspond to the track number, e.g. Track 1 = MIDI Channel 1, Track 2 = MIDI Channel 2. But if you copied from a combi or something else, the MIDI channel assignments might be different. You need to look at that page to determine how your sequencer tracks are set up and set your MIDI controller accordingly for each track when recording.

I don't know anything about your controller. Is it able to send on MIDI channels other than channel 1? Worst case, if it can't send on different channels, then you record your first track, then go into P3 Track Param, change that recorded track's MIDI channel to another MIDI channel number, then set your next track (e.g. track 2) to MIDI channel 1 and record again.

Also, when you're in the P3 Track Param page, ensure that Status of the tracks are not set to OFF. They should be set to either INT or BTH to record and/or play the M3M's sounds. If the status is set to OFF, it won't record any data regardless of MIDI channel assignments.
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SMUDGE



Joined: 19 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fatar sends only on channel 1, as far as I can tell. The documentation is pathetic. It's a real cheapy, although the hammer action is good.

I've almost got this working. The only hang up is I have to change input channel on each recorded track to 16 otherwise they all play the same notes.
Example:
I recorded a chord on track 1 via MIDI channel 1. I change the channel to 16, then record a melody on track 2 via MIDI channel 1. I press play and both play independently, but if I switch track 1's input from 16 back to 1, track 1 plays both the chord AND the melody from track 2.
Is this because I've recorded a MIDI CC message on track 1 that makes it play anything recorded from channel 1 regardless of the track?
At this rate, the only way I can use the Fatar and the M3M is if I sacrifice track/channel 16.
Any takers?
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't switch track 1 back to MIDI channel 1, unless you need to re-record something or add more to it. And if you do need to record more on track 1, you'll need to change track 2's MIDI channel to something else. This is a limitation of your controller, btw. Not the M3. You're not actually sacrificing any tracks. You will always have 16 tracks to work with. You just need to fudge the MIDI channels around to record each track separately.
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SMUDGE



Joined: 19 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I've almost got this.
There are a few issues I need clearing up though please.

I'm having some success recording multiple tracks, but..

When I switch the midi channel of track 1 to 16 so I can temporarily change track 2 to channel 1 so I can record to it, the data I recorded to track 1 is played simultaneously on track 16. In fact, after I've recorded track 2 with channel 1 and switched track 2 back to channel 2, track 2's data is combined with track 1's data on 16 as well. Thus I have to mute track 16 and am limited to 15 tracks. I don't see a way around this.

It seems like the way the M3 is set up is that after data is recorded to a track, the channel that was used to record the data somehow is permanently associated(?) with that data and if I change different track from where the data was originally recorded to the original track's midi channel that new track gets the original track's data simultaneously.

The reason for this may be very simple but I don't think it's my keyboard at this point. I've never experienced this with another sequencer.

Also the M3 is not remembering my patch modifications in each track's realtime control/tone adjust parameter screens. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong. I didn't think I had to write each patch?? I don't even know how to do that in the sequencer page.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, starting with the easier thing first. Real time control changes are never saved with the programs, but in SEQ mode they can be recorded to a track, either during the initial recording or in overdub mode. So let's say you've put down a synth on track 1 and you're happy with the notes & chords, but now you want it to be a little more expressive by making some real time changes to the filter of that track using slider 1. To do that, change the recording mode to Overdub on the Preference tab, and then record over track 1 again. Your previously played notes remain intact, but now you are overdubbing filter changes onto that same track. Note: If you don't like what you've overdubbed, use the compare button to undo those changes.

As for tone adjust, those edits should be saved permanently once you make them. You don't have to record those to a track. But there's a catch. If you have the Auto Load checkbox checked (on the control surface screen), and then let's say you decide to audition different programs on any previously recorded track, you will lose your tone adjust edits. Turning off the Auto Load function temporarily might be the way forward, however any new program you audition will use the tone adjust edits from the previous program and might not sound correct.

As to your MIDI channel issues, if two or more tracks share the same MIDI channel, those tracks will always play together. This is useful for layering multiple programs. So by changing track 1 to MIDI channel 16, you've now paired up both track 1 and track 16. This is a feature, not a bug. If you look at your P3 Track Param screen, you'll see that track 16 is also assigned to MIDI channel 16. So basically, whatever was recorded to track 1 will also play the program on track 16 when you change the MIDI channel.

Here's what I recommend. Any track that you have not yet used, turn it off in the P3 Track Param screen by changing the status to OFF. That way it cannot play, nor be recorded until you are ready to use that track. When you want to record on any given track, go back to the P3 Track Param screen and change its status back to BTH.

All you have to do is ensure that tracks with distinct musical data on them do not share the same MIDI channel (unless you want to layer sounds). Every sequencer I've ever used works this way -- this is a basic MIDI function. Alternatively, set all unused tracks to the same MIDI channel, e.g. 16, and when you are temporarily changing MIDI channel numbers for recorded tracks, don't use the MIDI channel 16 as the temporary MIDI channel.

I don't know if you are using any KARMA stuff on your tracks, but if you aren't, it is worth ensuring that the timbre THRU function is switched off too. That's done on the P7-1 KARMA screen. If the thru box is checked, it allows for one MIDI channel to trigger another MIDI channel. This can be undesirable. By default, it should be unchecked in a sequencer song. But if you copied a combi into the sequencer, it might be checked. So have a look at that.
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SMUDGE



Joined: 19 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I unchecked Auto Load on the Tone Adjust screen, but should this also affect the Realtime Control adjustments I make? These always reset at the top of the song for some reason. I looked in the track edit dropdown menu but I couldn't find anything relevant to erase to keep the patch from resetting to its default values. Am I doing this wrong?

EDIT
Overdubbing the Realtime Control changes onto the pre-existing track didn't work either. I hoped it would be a workaround, but the settings reverted back the second I stopped and restarted the song from the top.

I realize this is getting OT, but there is a huge learning curve with some of the M3 functions and the only other Korg synth I own is a Delta.
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SMUDGE



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I figured it out. I wasn't resetting the midi channel of the track back to 1. Now I can record Realtime Control parameter changes. It doesn't make sense to me though. Why would changing the midi channel of the track make a difference? Since the data is now on the M3, and all the exclusive messages are on the M3, why would changing the midi channel matter? My Fatar isn't doing anything. Does this have something to do with the feature that is not a bug?

Man this is a weird setup. I've always wanted to love this sequencer. I think I still can once I wrap my head around it.

There is a problem, though. I want the patch to have my adjustments for a complete measure, but I have to make the adjustments when the overdub begins at the top of the song through the end of measure 8. If I playback the track I can clearly see the Realtime Control changes I have made, the faders moving etc, but when I loop the track to the measures I want (5-Cool the Realtime Control settings revert to default, completely ignoring the adjustments I made while the recorder was overdubbing on tracks 1-4.

Is there a way to make a snapshot of parameter settings in this sequencer? Then I could make a snapshot at the top of the song rather than adjusting them as it overdubs. The only other option I see is if I sacrifice the first 4 measures to my adjustments and set the looper to play the intro before it loops measures 5-8.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMUDGE wrote:
Is there a way to make a snapshot of parameter settings in this sequencer? Then I could make a snapshot at the top of the song rather than adjusting them as it overdubs. The only other option I see is if I sacrifice the first 4 measures to my adjustments and set the looper to play the intro before it loops measures 5-8.



Given your workflow, using a few measures to set up your programs is the way to do it most likely. Because (from the Operation Guide): MIDI tracks 1–16 each consist of “track parameters” that specify the starting state of the track, and “playback data.”

But thing you have to understand is that the real time controls are just MIDI CCs to control parameters from values different than their defaults. They aren't meant to be "permanent" adjustments -- if you want permanency before the sequence starts, then use Tone Adjust prior to recording anything to get your program how you want it to sound. Use the Real Time controls to make expressive, temporary parameter changes that will revert to their default state when the song is restarted. I've never bothered to use the loop tracks function because there is more than enough song memory available. It's just easier for me to copy measures. If the sequencer were limited to something like only 16,000 events, then yeah, the loop function probably would be necessary for me then.

I was just thinking back to the "old days" when I used a dedicated hardware sequencer, which was a Roland MC-300 I believe. It worked differently than Korg's sequencers in that its tracks were completely independent of MIDI channels. All tracks were simply data tracks. It would record data from any MIDI channel onto any track number, and you could bounce / merge tracks so that just one track could play several synths on different MIDI channels. I don't recall if it could loop measures though. I loved that sequencer -- spent years and years using it until I got tired of using floppy disks to save my data. The MC-500 mk II had more features and memory than the MC-300, and really I only bring this up because something similar (and likely newer) to those sequencers would clearly suit your workflow better, and you wouldn't have to worry so much about MIDI channels assignments within a track or your controller's channel. But even with that sequencer, I would have to allot two to four measures just to send program changes, MIDI CCs or sysex to my synths and effects modules before the song part would start. I guess that's the old school way of doing things.

And Korg's sequencer works differently in that its tracks are MIDI tracks, completely reliant on MIDI channel assignments. It's a different way of working, but if you spend a little time experimenting with it and have the manual to hand when something doesn't work, it shouldn't be too difficult to wrangle a decent sequence out of it. The sequencer is actually super flexible.

But if you are determined to use the Real Time controls to alter your sounds at the start of a sequence, you might consider investigating the Create Ctrl Data command instead of manually overdubbing those changes with slider movements. The benefit of that is that the change can be instantaneous, e.g. setting the filter CC#74 to any value at any point in the sequence. This will be your "snapshot" so to speak. So if something seems to revert later in the sequence, you can just insert Ctrl Data in the very first index/beat of any given measure and put the sound back where you want it. It beats scratching your head over why things aren't working the way you think they ought to work. But everything is working as Korg intended it to work.
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SMUDGE



Joined: 19 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand how the Tone Adjust could replicate the parameter adjustments in the Realtime Control. There are a completely different set of values and parameters in the two pages. I couldn't find where the manual specifically addresses this, so if you can tell me please do because it would be a big help.

I'm coming from a Roland/Akai-centric sequencer background, so that's why I have so many questions. The MPC, MV, MC and even PMA-5 have much simpler sequencers to deal with. I see so much potential with the M3 sequencer, but I've sat on it for a decade and used it as a multitimbral sound module the whole time. I want to get more bang for my buck.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, the Tone Adjust sliders and buttons are not static. You can change them to suit on a per program/track. So...

The first 4 real time sliders are hardwired to these parameters (and also silkscreened on the control panel, minus the CC numbers of course):

Slider 1 - Filter Cutoff CC#74
Slider 2 - Filter Resonance CC#71
Slider 3 - Filter EG Intensity CC#79
Slider 4 - EG release Time CC#72

The other four sliders vary in their assignments on a per program basis, but usually the sliders 7 & 8 change the effects in some way, most often depth. So let's ignore sliders 5 thru 8...

Right. When you're in Tone Adjust Mode, the default settings are usually not the same as the first 4 sliders in Real Time mode. But you can change them to be anything you want them to be. For example, for program I-A 000 Stereo Grand 4-Way, if you go to Tone Adjust, you'll see that real time control button #6 is set to "Fltr Fc". Touch on the arrow right next to it. You'll see it's full name assignment as "Filter Cutoff". So that's the same as slider 1 in the real time controls. It's just assigned to the button, but it doesn't have to be. You could, if you wanted, assign that setting to any of the sliders or buttons in Tone Adjust (note: if you do want to reassign, you need to unassign it from button 6 first, otherwise it will be greyed out when you try to assign it elsewhere because you can only assign a parameter to one control at a time).

Looking at Tone Adjust Slider 8, it says "F/A EG R". This is *almost the same* as slider 4, the difference is that it's controlling both the amp release and the filter release together in one go. But you can make it match RTC slider 4 precisely by touching the arrow next to the description and selecting AMP EG Release Time from the list of options.

Do you see how that works?

Reading material:

Start with page 49 in the Operation Guide, "Using Tone Adjust - Changing Parameter Assignments"

Next, switch to the Parameter Guide and start on page 19. If you make it to pages 21 and 22, you'll see a list of "Common Tone Adjust Parameters" and further on you'll see a section on "Default Tone Adjust Settings" with a handy graphic. Most programs will more or less use these, but again, you don't have to keep 'em. Change them to whatever you want.

And note: Tone Adjust is an awesome way of editing programs assigned to a combi or sequence without changing the actual original Program preset itself. Almost everything you can change while editing a program is available to you in Tone Adjust.
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