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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:15 pm Post subject: KARMA for the PA Series |
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I have talked about this before in different threads, but felt that maybe I could make a topic about this and see if there is any interest from other users.
I had posted in a Kronos thread about the KARMA engine for the PA Series, but changed the post due to not wanting to hijack a thread about the Kronos with another product.
Would we be interested at all in wanting Korg/KARMA to integrate the KARMA system, either software or hardware, into the Korg PA Series? Could it even be done? I know that with the PA Series (I have a PA700), you have up to 8 backing tracks and up to 4 real-time tracks in Style Mode. In Sequencer Mode, you have up to 16 tracks available.
Maybe KARMA could be integrated into the PA Series, either in the keyboard itself or through software (like as with the M50).
I am not sure how well it would integrate with the arranger functions, but I think that it would work beyond what the normal arranger functions would do. After all, our variations in each style can not only be based on the 4 variations themselves, but also vary depending on the chord being played. While this adds variation, it still remains somewhat static. KARMA would add a whole new sonic territory for the arranger within the styles themselves.
Granted, there are only up to 8 parts of backing tracks in Style Mode, but maybe there could be a version of KARMA that could be adapted to work within those 8 tracks.
I have listened to the original KARMA keyboard demos and love their sound, even to this day. I have played with the M3 and its KARMA engine, as well as the OASYS and the Kronos (granted, I have not played as much with the OASYS and Kronos). I love how, if programmed correctly, one can get almost 'arranger type' functionality out of KARMA on those synths.
Maybe the systems are not compatible? Maybe it would take too much programming and system changes from Korg/KARMA to integrate? I do not know, but thinking about it really gets my mind spinning as to the possibilities.
Imagine any of the current arrangers from Korg (PA4X, PA1000, PA700) being able to generate spontaneous riffs and lines over the top of a Style, or being able to choose between the Style's programming and KARMA...
I think that the ultimate arranger from Korg might feature the option of KARMA. Maybe Korg won't do it because it treads a bit too close to their synth line...Maybe it would have to be done through software while in Sequencer Mode on the PA Series...either way, it might be fun to have that option...
I welcome any thoughts on this; either for OR against it.
Grace,
Harry
_________________
Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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Dawnbell
Joined: 02 Aug 2019
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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With no expertise in sound design, with admiration for Mr.Harry, I am for adding KARMA, in software mode. This way, my current PA700 can get a update, right?  
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His Grace is sufficient!
Self-taught keyboard newbie. Humbled and grateful for this forum. Korg PA700 + TC Helicon Perform-VK |
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duby2
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 1379
Location: USA Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:23 pm Post subject: karma |
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yes software mode for keyboard that do not upgrade...
but
yes Karama would be nice ,,, korg put kaoss in the pa4x they can add karma in also...
the M50 has the same 16 tracks .. like the rests...
the style play mode , korg can add or remover tracks ..
if karma is on you might just have 5 backing track with karma on ,, its not that hard to do .. and we play two MIDI Seq at a time now ( 32 tracks )... the backing track can take over while karma figure it out the next parts or generate it wile the style play mode is fill in ,,
but will korg do it.. |
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Biggles
Platinum Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2017
Posts: 1012
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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That would be quite an Arranger.
Over on the PA4X version there has been a lot of speculation on a possible PA5X, well I am not sure that Korg would be going that way simply because there has been so much happening in the last couple of years updating the 4X operating system and with the release and updates of Osimo. I am of the opinion that the 4X will be supplanted by a new top of the range Arranger a sort of PA3000.
What you are suggesting is probably not possible on the architecture of the existing 4X platform (& 700/1000) and given that Korg Arrangers are a product of Korg Italy a new updated Arranger may well be quite radical, lets face it it needs to be to compete with the Genos.
The Genos has no doubt taken a lot of business off Korg and yet Korg plod on with old architecture in the 4X and for me the reason is they are developing a new from the ground up flagship Arranger.
So yes let us hope your speculation is correct.
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Biggles
Lancashire, UK |
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Randelph
Platinum Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 604
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Harry,
I had the Korg M3.
I would give a definitive NO to your question. Keep in mind that with the M3 and Kronos you had 8 sliders that could be assigned to KARMA functions. So, if built-into the hardware it'd need to be the PA4x
Given how complex as a system it is, I'm fairly certain Korg gave up on including it in their hardware because it was not that user friendly. I certainly had no luck incorporating it into my musical expression, though to be honest I didn't try that hard either. In general, that was the consensus I heard, with a few outliers that were able to put it to good use.
The software designer went ahead and made it available for Yamaha workstations about 10 years ago or so, using your computer. It's been over 5 years ? since I've heard anything about it, so I assume that project didn't go anywhere.
However, I think that incorporating the FCB1010 would give you a big boost in usability. You seem like a power user. I really don't understand why Korg took away the EC5? socket, and only gives you 1 damper and 1 expression pedal input. Given the huge number of things that you can do with the board, and you only have two hands, having 2 (or even 3) expression pedals would be pretty awesome, and all those footswitches would make this board even more accesible.
Randy
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Keyboards: Kawai ES920 / Casio CT-X5000
Instruments: Keys / Alto Recorder and Melodica |
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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Randelph wrote: | Harry,
I had the Korg M3.
I would give a definitive NO to your question. Keep in mind that with the M3 and Kronos you had 8 sliders that could be assigned to KARMA functions. So, if built-into the hardware it'd need to be the PA4x
Given how complex as a system it is, I'm fairly certain Korg gave up on including it in their hardware because it was not that user friendly. I certainly had no luck incorporating it into my musical expression, though to be honest I didn't try that hard either. In general, that was the consensus I heard, with a few outliers that were able to put it to good use.
The software designer went ahead and made it available for Yamaha workstations about 10 years ago or so, using your computer. It's been over 5 years ? since I've heard anything about it, so I assume that project didn't go anywhere.
However, I think that incorporating the FCB1010 would give you a big boost in usability. You seem like a power user. I really don't understand why Korg took away the EC5? socket, and only gives you 1 damper and 1 expression pedal input. Given the huge number of things that you can do with the board, and you only have two hands, having 2 (or even 3) expression pedals would be pretty awesome, and all those footswitches would make this board even more accesible.
Randy |
Great points, sir. I have enjoyed reading your posts and conversing with you in the different threads 
Since the PA700/1000/4X have USB host jacks on them , could we not put a small USB hub to allow for a few different devices to talk to/from the respective PA keyboards? Could we not include the FCB1010, and maybe the NANOkontrol to control the KARMA functions?
I have not considered the Berhringer pedal. I guess I am going to have to take a look at it and see what it can do for me. I will admit that the only pedal I have hooked up to my PA700 is the Sustain pedal; I do everything else by hand and do not really feel terribly limited, but there are a few times that I wish I had a few more hands. Maybe it is time to get the controller pedalboard and use my feet a bit more I see a LOT of possibilities just thinking about it. I will need to consult the different threads to see how to integrate it.
Whenever I played the M3 (almost bought one), I was astounded by the versatility of the KARMA engine. I could have A LOT of fun with it. I just joined a music group, but also am in another group where aside from a pair of guitar players, I AM the music section of the band (using the PA700, M50, Kross 1, and whatever else I want) for the soundbeds while the guitarists and singers play/sing over the top. KARMA would add a good amount of spontaneity with programmed material coming from the boards.
In the not too distant past, the way to make sequences an arranger tracks sound more 'live' was to simply add more boards and layer different sounds from the boards to make it sound bigger. With boards like the PA700, it sounds almost complete all by itself. I feel that KARMA might add just a bit more finish to the orchestrations
Grace,
Harry
_________________
Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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Randelph
Platinum Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 604
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Harry, I enjoy your posts as well, you're very helpful with everyone. It feels like the proverbial rabbit hole getting to understand this keyboard, and while I have my basic orientation now to do the basics of playing Songs/Styles, where to save, Sound editing, etc., there's a ton more to learn!!!
Check out the M3 forum on this site, Stephan Kay gives some pretty good examples of what can be done. But I believe your only option is if you were able to run it from a computer.
There's a guy on this forum that uses the Behringer FCB1010 foot pedal, and he swears by it. Do you use the mic on your pa700?
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Keyboards: Kawai ES920 / Casio CT-X5000
Instruments: Keys / Alto Recorder and Melodica |
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Musicwithharry
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012
Posts: 694
Location: Anamosa, IA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Randelph wrote: | Thanks Harry, I enjoy your posts as well, you're very helpful with everyone. It feels like the proverbial rabbit hole getting to understand this keyboard, and while I have my basic orientation now to do the basics of playing Songs/Styles, where to save, Sound editing, etc., there's a ton more to learn!!!
Check out the M3 forum on this site, Stephan Kay gives some pretty good examples of what can be done. But I believe your only option is if you were able to run it from a computer.
There's a guy on this forum that uses the Behringer FCB1010 foot pedal, and he swears by it. Do you use the mic on your pa700? |
You know, I may be considered a power user or sorts. I use the PA700 in many different ways, but not so much in others...
First, I use the Style Mode almost all of the time. It is integral in my nursing home ministry and when using at church.
Second, I use the Song Mode quite a lot because I also use the PA700 to dj sometimes at the homes and find myself switching back and forth between the Style and Song modes Being able to integrate these two together would be a neat trick..
Third, I use the Sequencer mode quite a lot too. I use it for playing back MIDI files from the large library of sequences that I have made/modified and use during shows (with bands and at the nursing homes)
Fourth is the Sound Mode. I use this mainly to program new sounds. From there, I will take these sounds and put them into Keyboard Sets in order to use them in the Style mode (whether I have a style running or not - I like the layering capability).
I do not sample too much, but do have the Yamaha C5 Piano sample Set from Reuben (which is listed in a lot of places in the forums). It meets my needs for the piano sound I want.
I use a sustain pedal for sustaining sounds and that is about it. I have tried using the Assignable pedal, but find that a bit cumbersome when playing live, so I just do all of the other controls with my hands while playing live.
I would love to look into the FCB1010 pedal and see what it gives me. I will have to research it, because I could see the value in having multiple pedal assignments for playing live. Hopefully, it has a USB input so I do not use up the MIDI OUT jack on the PA700, as I use that for talking with other MIDI gear, both live and in my studio.
I do use the Chord Sequencer feature quite a lot, so I can free up my left hand for controlling the joystick instead of having to make new chords while playing. It works well.
I do use the Songbook feature as well. Right now, I use it for triggering the MP3 soundbeds of my original material when I am doing a solo show of my original music. I have recently joined a band, and could see myself creating an additional Songbook setting for triggering the songs that the band wants to do. I can see getting A LOT of mileage from this.
Actually, I am in two bands. One is where I am the keyboardist so the Songbook entries would simply call up the sounds that I want to use for each particular song. With the other band, I AM basically most of the band. I have two guitar players and a singer, so I would be using the sequencer for our songs while we all play over the top of the sequences, The Songbook would be helpful for this as well.
I do not use the mic input - at least not yet. I do use the guitar input, but for my MP3 player when I am streaming songs off of YouTube during a dj session at the nursing homes. I use the guitar input with a Chorus effect because the Line Input is too soft. I get a boost with the guitar input. I noticed this when I first got the keyboard and it is not an error with the input; it is a line-level input and not loud enough compared to the rest of the volume of the PA700. I know that it is MONO, but adding chorus seems to help the spread of sound a bit. In the bands, I could totally see me using the mic input for a microphone so I can add my own effects to my voice without taxing the external mixer's efx...
I watched a video from Jeremy See about the comparison of the PA700 to the Yamaha PSR-SX900 early this morning and it opened my eyes a bit. Yamaha is behind the times when it comes to arrangers, at least when compared to the customization of our respective boards. I was initially intrigued by the new offering from Yamaha and had somewhat considered getting one, in addition to already having my PA700. I think that instead of buying one of those new PSR-SX series, I will simply buy another PA700 - Korg brings too much to the table. I cannot see taking a step back to get a Yamaha as an additional arranger. In fact, I learned a couple of thing about the PA700 that I had not known and will implement them today
Additionally, the replacement joystick for my PA700 has been shipped and when it arrives, I will be installing it in the PA700. I will likely take a lot of pictures and make them available for other users, since there is little out there about the internals on this board. I wore the joystick out on my PA700
Grace,
Harry
_________________
Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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karmathanever
Platinum Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 10404
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Owning a "PA and KARMA" keyboard combination for a very long time, I would definitely NOT want KARMA on the PA.
IMHO, the control surface would be a nightmare to control and manage - it would need a massive number of multipurpose controls.
Just my thoughts...
Pete 
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PA4X-76, Karma, WaveDrum GE, Fantom 8 EX
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siebenhirter
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 1844
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:09 pm Post subject: Karma-Functionality to Pa-Arrangers - NO |
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| karmathanever wrote: | | .. the control surface would be a nightmare to control and manage .. |
I do not see benefits to implement Karma-Functionality on Pa-Arrangers - the use of Pa-Arrangers should be simplified, which is inconceivable with additional Karma-functions.
Instead of expanding an Arranger, it would be more advantageous to expand the existing functions with the existing sound system in a user-friendly and practical way. With its high quality sound system up to 28 editable oscillators it offers all the possibilities to play the keyboard dynamically and without static impression.
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But it would be necessary to extend style functions (background tracks) to for more variable style performances - and also easy to implement - in order to achieve flexibility in the arrangement of the background sounds as we have with the performances of the realtime tracks (KbdSets).
The approach to this is the songbook with four assignable style performances per Sb-Entry. In a set-list arrangement, differently dense arrangements of the style tracks (Volume, Mute-On / Off, Prg ..) can be realized with a song of the entry type "Style", assuming that in an OS update the selection of a Sb-entry (Entry-Typ style) will not automatically load KbdSet#1 in case of StyletoKbdSet = Off.
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The evaluation of aftertouch or velocity would be suitable for controlling the density of the accompanying arrangement.
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The fade-out function with parameters (Realtime / Background / Both) could be expanded to suit your needs, so that you can continue to play with both hands while the background sounds fade away.
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Practically suitable were the outputs (Left, Right, Out1, Out2) in the middle class (Pa800) - in the new middle class (Pa700 / 1000) this is not the case, but it would be practical!
Etc.
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These examples of a practical operating concept can be continued and would bring advantages in the operation with an Arrangerkeyboard, which I do not see by an addition with KARMA functionality to Pa-Arrangers.
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kind regards
- siebenhirter, austria -
Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de |
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