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Hydrasynth features compared to Kronos
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:51 am    Post subject: Hydrasynth features compared to Kronos Reply with quote

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psionic311
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This newcomer is generating a lot of buzz, especially on GearSlutz

I think I'm a bit of a Kronos fanatic.
I look at new synths and go, "Kronos can do that!"

But the Hydra has some new tricks Kronos can't do.

Sure, Kronos trumps Hydra in obvious places:
- LFOs, ENVs, engines, polyphony
- Arps, step sequencers, FX

But Hydra has the edge in a few areas
- wavetables
- filter quality
- ribbon and poly AT

I'll probably end up getting a Hydra, at the very least for its poly AT.

Do you also like the Hydra?
Or are you satisfied with the Kronos?

I'm curious what you think.
Especially what you think the Kronos can mimic in the Hydra.
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HardSync
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also a huge Korg fan! I've wanted a Kronos since it was first released, but the price has always been a little too steep, and I do enjoy eating now and then. I still dream about owning a Kronos. But the Hydrasynth is tempting me something fierce and I'm considering pre-ordering it. I can do $1200 easily versus $3000. The Kronos has way more going for it though and I'd be happy to replace my M3 with a Kronos any day. If I had to choose one or the other, price notwithstanding, I'd choose a Kronos, primarily for its nine synth engines, sequencer, wave sequencing, KARMA, etc.

But the Hydrasynth... gosh, I haven't been this excited about a synth since 1990 when Korg released the Wavestation, and I bought three of those. I really wanna get my hands on a Hydra and have a solid play on it. The poly AT is a big, big thing for me -- although I get that most people really don't need poly AT. I own an Ensoniq VFX SD that has a poly AT keyboard, and I've kept it nearly three decades just because of that. I wouldn't mind replacing it with the Hydrasynth, but I'd honestly prefer 61 keys rather than only 49. I'd also like to see a bit more polyphony on the Hydra -- it's only 8 voices -- but a one oscillator voice can sound pretty huge on this thing! I also really like the controls and interface on the Hydra. This is just a gorgeous synth for soundtrack composers, much like the Wavestation and Emu Morpheus are.

It is interesting that Hydra emulates the MS-20 filter though... and its vowel filter is reminiscent of the EMU Morpheus, which is another synth I love to death. Obviously showing my age here... LOL.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardSync wrote:
Also a huge Korg fan! I've wanted a Kronos since it was first released, but the price has always been a little too steep, and I do enjoy eating now and then. I still dream about owning a Kronos. But the Hydrasynth is tempting me something fierce and I'm considering pre-ordering it. I can do $1200 easily versus $3000. The Kronos has way more going for it though and I'd be happy to replace my M3 with a Kronos any day. If I had to choose one or the other, price notwithstanding, I'd choose a Kronos, primarily for its nine synth engines, sequencer, wave sequencing, KARMA, etc.

.


Don't give up or get distracted from Kronos.

The used market is growing. More supply=lower price.
Its my opinion, that even more used Kronos' will arrive
for sale.

I also think one should be cautious with a used K. Many of the responsible
dealers offer a 6 month warranty on a used K. IMO, a warranty should include full refund, not just schlepping it to an auth Korg service center.
Reading warranty is an important detail.
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my K61 used for $2100 back in 2014.
Put in an extra SSD and max RAM.
Great deal, it's been a workhorse and a constant inspiration.

Funny you should mention a Morpheus.
Been wanting those Z-plane filters for a long while now.
I've read the manuals for the Morpheus, Ultra-Proteus, and the MP7.
Was a tough choice, but the 4-layers and sequencing won out.
I've got an MP7 arriving today or tomorrow!

But the Hydra --
Poly AT is a biggie for me.
My VFX-SD's keybed is not so inspiring, half-broken.
Too bad the Hydra is only 4-octave though
But poly AT, the ribbon, and wavetable synthesis make it a no brainer.

We live in a synth golden age.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
But Hydra has the edge in a few areas
- wavetables
- filter quality
- ribbon and poly AT


Hi Psionic, I'm a bit surprised by what you said there ->
About wavetables : in ASM you create a WT among 218 waves. In K, more than 1,500 waves in ROM, not considering the others extensions.

I did a little test : creating a new wavesequence with 30 steps, sampling it and using this user sample in a new WS -> the 30 steps becomes 1 step !!
Just some numbers, for the fun : We can imagine a 64 steps WS with each step already containing 64 steps ! All in all you get a 4096 steps Wavesequence !
As each K WS step can be up to 10 sec long, a full 64 steps WS reaches more than 10 minutes long without a single repeat !!
We know that the shorter step is 10ms so, a 4096 steps WS will be about 40s. So, it's possible to build a WS with 10 steps of 4,096 steps each -> we get a "little" 40,960 steps Wavesequence !

On this particular point and because its huge versatiliy, Kronos largely surpasses this new Hydrasynth. I don't mean it is a bad instrument. I'm sure it will be a good one for a good price. But my opinion is that a comparison beetween the both doesn't worth it.

--------------------------------------

About polyaftertouch : I wonder if it is really usefull ? Is it really possible to play live and control each of our 10 fingers pressure on each note ? Personally, I'm not able to do that Laughing
A chanel aftertouch as Kronos is able to do in combination, yes, it's usefull. Using AT in leads part for example, when playing chords on the other hand. But I don't see what could be the interest of the polyaftertouch. Perhaps there is one, but I don't know what.
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BobTheDog
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Hydra has the ability to morph between 8 wave shapes though, as far as I know the Kronos cannot morph wave shapes or am I wrong?
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos cannot interpolate or morph between wave shapes.
Serum can. Hydrasynth can.
EDIT:
Blofeld CANNOT morph between waves.
Blofeld scans its wavetables.

Wavetable morphing is different from wave sequencing.
WS makes distinct changes between steps.
Morphing is smoother, continuous.

This morning I listened to a Hydrasynth video.
There was a wavetable morph sound I tried to emulate.
My result was 50% there.

MOD7 is awesome.
You can even use your own sample as a carrier.
I did this with a resampled WS.
The problem is, complex waveforms do not make good carriers.
This is also the case with the Yamaha TG77.
It produces some edge first, but then quickly turns to noise.

Interesting FM happens when complex waveforms are *modulators*.
This is what makes the Hydra interesting.
You can use those morphing waves as both carrier and modulator.
Wavetable FM. Yummy.


Last edited by psionic311 on Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardSync wrote:

But the Hydrasynth... gosh, I haven't been this excited about a synth since 1990 when Korg released the Wavestation, and I bought three of those. I really wanna get my hands on a Hydra and have a solid play on it. The poly AT is a big, big thing for me -- although I get that most people really don't need poly AT. I own an Ensoniq VFX SD that has a poly AT keyboard, and I've kept it nearly three decades just because of that. I wouldn't mind replacing it with the Hydrasynth, but I'd honestly prefer 61 keys rather than only 49. I'd also like to see a bit more polyphony on the Hydra -- it's only 8 voices -- but a one oscillator voice can sound pretty huge on this thing! I also really like the controls and interface on the Hydra. This is just a gorgeous synth for soundtrack composers, much like the Wavestation and Emu Morpheus are.

It is interesting that Hydra emulates the MS-20 filter though... and its vowel filter is reminiscent of the EMU Morpheus, which is another synth I love to death. Obviously showing my age here... LOL.


I wish there were more demos of the Hydra's filters in action. Especially with drive turned up on the various filters. The MS20 sounds great when driven hard, but the Hydra videos only showcased them with a little bit of resonance, then a sweep, then more resonance, another sweep, etc.

I couldn't help myself.
I preordered a Hydra. Mid November is the expected shipping date.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobTheDog wrote:
The Hydra has the ability to morph between 8 wave shapes though, as far as I know the Kronos cannot morph wave shapes or am I wrong?


Kronos doesn't have Morph setting per se. But, it can be emulated by using AMS Position modulator, with AMS Mixer as source and "Smoothing" mode.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
The Kronos cannot interpolate or morph between wave shapes.
The Blofeld can. Serum can. Hydrasynth can.

Wavetable morphing is different from wave sequencing.
WS makes distinct changes between steps.
Morphing is smoother, continuous.


Wavetable, Wavesequence and Wave Morphing :

A Wavetable is a waves source, not a synth mode !
Wavesequence and Wavemorphing use both a Wavetable with a minimum of 2 waves.
It is not necessary to have Wavetables in order to get wavemorphing. For example, in Kronos AL-1, morphing is possible between two oscillators ("Wave morph" parameter).

Blofeld has fixed Wavetables, its possible to choose or modulate the start point, but there is no Wavemorphing (see the Blofeld manual here : Here)

You're right, Kronos doesn't have wavemorphing in wavesequencing. But, as I told before, using the right crossfades parameters and "Smoothing" AMS Mixer as AMS Position source, its possible to very nearly emulate Wave morphing. It is not a real wavemorphing stricly speaking but it's so close that it is often quite impossible to distinguish.
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Last edited by Liviou2004 on Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
BobTheDog wrote:
The Hydra has the ability to morph between 8 wave shapes though, as far as I know the Kronos cannot morph wave shapes or am I wrong?


Kronos doesn't have Morph setting per se. But, it can be emulated by using AMS Position modulator, with AMS Mixer as source and "Smoothing" mode.


Can you demonstrate this? I don't believe it can be done.
In a WS, the Position only points to the start point of the next step in the sequence.
Attempting to modulate this changes the order of the steps.
It does not affect any individual wave timbre whatsoever.


Here's how I tested this:

I am able to use AMS Mixer 1 Smoothing (and Shaping) to alter the "contour" of an LFO saw wave.

I've successfully auditioned this changed LFO that was assigned to filter cutoff.

I then created a new wavesequence with 3 distinct waves: organ, bell, trombone.
I set each step at 2 seconds, to fully hear each WS step change abruptly.

But assigning that AMS Mixer 1 to the WS Position does no interpolation between waveforms.
It only affects the order and timing of the next step.
Each wave change was abrupt and distinct, completely retaining its original timbre.
This remained true when changing AMS Mixer 1 values.
Changing the Position parameter to other AMS sources did not affect timbre either.

Please post how you were able to emulate audio waveform interpolation.
I believe using crossfade between steps produces at least some blending.
But this is not morphing.

I would love to emulate wavetable morphing in the Kronos.
Amit, Charles Ferraro, and I (and others) have spent quite a bit of time attempting this. Thanks.
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psionic311 wrote:
Liviou2004 wrote:
BobTheDog wrote:
The Hydra has the ability to morph between 8 wave shapes though, as far as I know the Kronos cannot morph wave shapes or am I wrong?


Kronos doesn't have Morph setting per se. But, it can be emulated by using AMS Position modulator, with AMS Mixer as source and "Smoothing" mode.


Can you demonstrate this? I don't believe it can be done.
In a WS, the Position only points to the start point of the next step in the sequence.
Attempting to modulate this changes the order of the steps.
It does not affect any individual wave timbre whatsoever.


Here's how I tested this:

I am able to use AMS Mixer 1 Smoothing (and Shaping) to alter the "contour" of an LFO saw wave.

I've successfully auditioned this changed LFO that was assigned to filter cutoff.

I then created a new wavesequence with 3 distinct waves: organ, bell, trombone.
I set each step at 2 seconds, to fully hear each WS step change abruptly.

But assigning that AMS Mixer 1 to the WS Position does no interpolation between waveforms.
It only affects the order and timing of the next step.
Each wave change was abrupt and distinct, completely retaining its original timbre.
This remained true when changing AMS Mixer 1 values.
Changing the Position parameter to other AMS sources did not affect timbre either.

Please post how you were able to emulate audio waveform interpolation.
I believe using crossfade between steps produces at least some blending.
But this is not morphing.

I would love to emulate wavetable morphing in the Kronos.
Amit, Charles Ferraro, and I (and others) have spent quite a bit of time attempting this. Thanks.


Yes, you're right. AMS Mixer doesn't work as I told.
In fact it works in "Run" mode only and with right Crossfade parameters. But as soon as "Run" is unchecked, crossfade parameters are disconnected they can't be set somewhere else.

So I've been too optimistic. I'm sorry !

However, I maintain that with right settings, wavesequences can sound like morphing. But it's true, it is blending, not morphing.

Could please give me an example of a sound you could not reproduce on K ? I've seen this video and I didn't hear a single sound that Kronos couldn't play : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ypKUdWRd9s.
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:

Yes, you're right. AMS Mixer doesn't work as I told.
In fact it works in "Run" mode only and with right Crossfade parameters. But as soon as "Run" is unchecked, crossfade parameters are disconnected they can't be set somewhere else.

So I've been too optimistic. I'm sorry !


Hey, no problem! Smile

You and I think very much alike with regards to the Kronos. Knowing the many parameters and possibilities, we sometimes speculate that something can be done that might not actually be possible.

Quote:

However, I maintain that with right settings, wavesequences can sound like morphing. But it's true, it is blending, not morphing.

Could please give me an example of a sound you could not reproduce on K ? I've seen this video and I didn't hear a single sound that Kronos couldn't play : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ypKUdWRd9s.


This attitude is also very similar to mine. I constantly hear other synth demos and think "the Kronos can do that!" In fact, I'm currently partway through making a bank of MOD7 programs to emulate someone else's custom bank of Yamaha TG77 programs. (TG77 is the rackmount version of the Yamaha SY series, their FM synthesis method a generation after the original DX FM methods.)

(I also have to confess that the sample wavesequence that I made yesterday, which I called "WS Hydra 1", actually did sound closer to 70-80% of the original Hydra wave. For many, that will be close enough. Only purists like you and I care for those last few percentage points to approach 99%.)

That Perfect Circuit demo is not a great example. I agree that the Kronos can make all those sounds (the one at 7:00 is a bit tricky, I'd use AL1 OSC sync or MOD7 waveshapers).

Give me a few minutes to find Hydra demos with wavetable morphing beyond Kronos crossfading WS "pseudo" wavemorphing emulation abilities.

EDIT: also, could you kindly remove that extra long URL from your post above, so that this thread can be viewed normally? It is forcing the browser window to be very wide, necessitating use of a horizontal scroll bar just to read the post. Thx.
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psionic311
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arghh, never use the forum reply box as a scratchpad for your notes!
It will timeout, ask you to log in again, thereby wiping out everything you wrote.
I just lost about 30 minutes worth of specific time links. Evil or Very Mad

Loopop's demo video had some good examples.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rJd_j9_Ixs
The time index is listed on the left of the video.
Go to the Oscillators section (13:40)
15:40 for wavetable morphing example
19:24 PWM ratios
19:45 PWM squeeze
21:20 the harmonic sweep mode.

Daniel Fisher has a long demo, but only one sound stood out.
It's the very last sound before the end, where he sweeps the ribbon.

Around 6:33, 8:33, and 12:00, BoBeats showcases some factory presets that are beyond Kronos.

But most of all, Flux's video here goes in-depth on the OSCs.
More than half of the sound examples are beyond what Kronos can do.

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