Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Will the New Fantom Motivate Korg ?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jimknopf
Platinum Member


Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3341

PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Devnor, I liked the actual Fantom engine for synth sounds (despite not being ACB, but rather sample based modelling, as far as I understood) from the start. Like many, I have always enjoyed the lush, warm side of Roland synth sounds, many of which sit pretty well in a mix or live performance.

But these don't remotely define an allround instrument (synth or workstation) to me. You are right, Roland normally is far from putting all or even most of the goodies into one box, but I definitely think, that this time they better should jump over their shadow for once, if they really want to be successful! The Fantom could become an enjoyable allround synth, if they did some of the required big steps forward. I fear they won't, once more.

If I just wanted some Roland synth sounds, perhaps a Jupiter XM might do. The challenge of an allround synth is something completely else. Even if I accept that they don't have to do it the Korg way (which I do, although Korg's Oasys-Kronos project still impresses me after nearly two decades of initial development), Roland would still have to throw in pretty much everything they have on offer (plus update some basics, see 4 velocity layers and missing audio sequencing, even if only 4 tracks or something) - to be really convincing from my view.

Frankly, I don't see that coming. They rather will offer another interesting synth, stopping halfway of it's true potential, while demanding a full premium price. I am convinced, that they severely limit their possible success that way. Whatever - it's still a (limited) challenge for the aging Kronos, especially concerning the Fantom UI, with the endless encoders and some other really well made things.

By the way, does anyone know why the Fantom 7 and 8 add so much to the dimensions of the thing? The 7 and 8 have a disproportional big surface towards the back, without any technical reason I understand for that: that's simply really bad dimensions for carrying them around, compared to the 6.
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Korg Prologue 16 - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Cubase 10 Pro + Groove Agent 5
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
billysynth1
Platinum Member


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Posts: 1146
Location: Australia/Melbourne

PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given Scott Tibbs' demonstration of the Fantom 8, I'd say the extra dimension is for resting laptop or other devices on it. Scott had 2 x Roland micro gadgets sitting on top of the back part the Fantom 8, these were connected via the outputs on the back of the Fantom. I think he made use of the CV connector as well in the demonstration...?

Vas
_________________
Yamaha C1 Grand Piano.
Korg Oasys 88, Jupiter 80
Kronos 88, V Synth GT
I am a student of classical piano...I am not a classical pianist.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jimknopf
Platinum Member


Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3341

PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But if that was the idea, wouldn't it have been much smarter to add some kind of a laptop holder option to the original casing (for 6, 7 and 8 ), instead of wasting so much (home-)studio room, stage room and weight for the 7 and 8, while also making transport really uncomfortable?
_________________
Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Korg Prologue 16 - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Cubase 10 Pro + Groove Agent 5
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stevewahl



Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I got my first Kronos X (used) when I wanted to upgrade my Ensoniq VFX + Integra-7 pair to something more portable, all-in-one. Roland didn't make anything like I wanted at the time (Jupiter 80 didn't do sequencing / drums, FA didn't have aftertouch and felt cheap). Certain I didn't want to leave out aftertouch, I started looking at previous generation, like Roland Fantom G, and Korg M3, and found the Kronos X... There were some sounds I liked better in the Integra 7 than in the Kronos, but I haven't used the integra much at all since. Here's my feelings:

Roland continued support with external computing devices is, IMHO, highly suspect. The Fantom DAW integration works today, it will work next year probably. Soon after it will break and won't be maintained. I say that based upon the much-touted iPad editor for the Integra-7. It was cool for what it did, and was promised to be expanded to cover editing more parts of the Integra (it can only edit the SN-S tones, for instance). It was never updated, the version on the app store is the same as was there in the beginning. You can't even edit the drawbars in the organ engine!

I feel updates past the first year are suspect, too. If you don't want a Fantom without SA Acoustic sounds, I wouldn't buy one based on future promises; wait until it's actually shipping.

As I understand it, Korg's driver / editor for the Kronos is in a similar situation, of course.

Do not discount that Korg is the only manufacturer I've noticed that has been able to create a successful 3rd party sound library story. As much as I'm usually against Digital Rights Management, here they have used it right, making it possible for third parties to create libraries that they stand a chance at selling a decent number of without having piracy take most of the sales away.

In a Kronos successor, I think Korg would do best to keep what they have and build upon it. I'd keep the existing sound engines and maybe add a few or improve them, add effects as others have mentioned, maintain compatibility with current Kronos 3rd party libraries, and user files too, so you can load PCG etc from kronos (whether sticking with bidirectional compatibility, or just being able to translate into the new system).

But I feel a UI / workflow overhaul to make things appear, feel, and act "new" would sell well, even with most of the same stuff under the hood. A whole separate thread could be made about UI changes, of course, in fact I believe there have been some already. A good place to start would be making sure it's easy to examine an existing patch to determine how things are done, a "CC finder" for instance (what parameter(s)s is JS-Y being routed to?) But really need to make the first layer page access the "most used" parameters directly, and be very friendly, and make page diving reserved for lesser used details.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.
_________________
Equipment: Kronos 2 61, Kronos X 61, JP-08, Integra-7, Miniak, JV-1080, Ensoniq VFX & VFX-SD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stevewahl



Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I got my first Kronos X (used) when I wanted to upgrade my Ensoniq VFX + Integra-7 pair to something more portable, all-in-one. Roland didn't make anything like I wanted at the time (Jupiter 80 didn't do sequencing / drums, FA didn't have aftertouch and felt cheap). Certain I didn't want to leave out aftertouch, I started looking at previous generation, like Roland Fantom G, and Korg M3, and found the Kronos X... There were some sounds I liked better in the Integra 7 than in the Kronos, but I haven't used the integra much at all since. Here's my feelings:

Roland continued support with external computing devices is, IMHO, highly suspect. The Fantom DAW integration works today, it will work next year probably. Soon after it will break and won't be maintained. I say that based upon the much-touted iPad editor for the Integra-7. It was cool for what it did, and was promised to be expanded to cover editing more parts of the Integra (it can only edit the SN-S tones, for instance). It was never updated, the version on the app store is the same as was there in the beginning. You can't even edit the drawbars in the organ engine!

I feel updates past the first year are suspect, too. If you don't want a Fantom without SA Acoustic sounds, I wouldn't buy one based on future promises; wait until it's actually shipping.

As I understand it, Korg's driver / editor for the Kronos is in a similar situation, of course.

Do not discount that Korg is the only manufacturer I've noticed that has been able to create a successful 3rd party sound library story. As much as I'm usually against Digital Rights Management, here they have used it right, making it possible for third parties to create libraries that they stand a chance at selling a decent number of without having piracy take most of the sales away.

In a Kronos successor, I think Korg would do best to keep what they have and build upon it. I'd keep the existing sound engines and maybe add a few or improve them, add effects as others have mentioned, maintain compatibility with current Kronos 3rd party libraries, and user files too, so you can load PCG etc from kronos (whether sticking with bidirectional compatibility, or just being able to translate into the new system).

But I feel a UI / workflow overhaul to make things appear, feel, and act "new" would sell well, even with most of the same stuff under the hood. A whole separate thread could be made about UI changes, of course, in fact I believe there have been some already. A good place to start would be making sure it's easy to examine an existing patch to determine how things are done, a "CC finder" for instance (what parameter(s)s is JS-Y being routed to?) But really need to make the first layer page access the "most used" parameters directly, and be very friendly, and make page diving reserved for lesser used details.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.
_________________
Equipment: Kronos 2 61, Kronos X 61, JP-08, Integra-7, Miniak, JV-1080, Ensoniq VFX & VFX-SD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8198
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevewahl wrote:


Roland continued support with external computing devices is, IMHO, highly suspect.

The Fantom DAW integration works today, it will work next year probably. Soon after it will break and won't be maintained.

I say that based upon the much-touted iPad editor for the Integra-7. It was cool for what it did, and was promised to be expanded to cover editing more parts of the Integra (it can only edit the SN-S tones, for instance). It was never updated, the version on the app store is the same as was there in the beginning. You can't even edit the drawbars in the organ engine!

.


I don't quite follow. You make these Fantom predictions based on how Roland handled or managed an editor for iPad.

I don't accept Roland has some major support flaw that will rear up on Fantom soon.

Thats my 2 cents. Not wanting to argue. If Roland recently blew off support of the FA or another expensive keyboard, that might be a closer compare or solid example.

My position is that none of these co's are perfect. IMO.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Poseidon
Full Member


Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 245

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevewahl wrote:
... would sell well, even with most of the same stuff under the hood....


Kronos needs a complete overhaul,or better say redesign of hardware that drives GUI. The current design is a bloody joke. When The Combi + Karma plays, try to change a patch …
So much time goes wasted. I always get very frustrated when I modify combis live. Kronos does not use onboard GPU, and we know why, but that’s another story of failed non-Intel chipset onboard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8198
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
stevewahl wrote:
... would sell well, even with most of the same stuff under the hood....


Kronos needs a complete overhaul,or better say redesign of hardware that drives GUI. The current design is a bloody joke. When The Combi + Karma plays, try to change a patch …
So much time goes wasted. I always get very frustrated when I modify combis live. Kronos does not use onboard GPU, and we know why, but that’s another story of failed non-Intel chipset onboard.


I mostly agree. If I were president of Korg, I would fund R &D and development of a new concept production synthesizer keyboard. Lets say something twice as exciting and better than todays Montage and Fantom.

I understand why some Kronos owners may not share my wishes for this.

I also think a Kronos 3, lets call it that, if it still has many of the same internal limits as Kronos today, would not be very exciting.

I think there is a 60% chance Korg will have some new [?} high end keyboard product to show by NAMM 2020.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
stevewahl



Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
stevewahl wrote:


Roland continued support with external computing devices is, IMHO, highly suspect.

The Fantom DAW integration works today, it will work next year probably. Soon after it will break and won't be maintained.

I say that based upon the much-touted iPad editor for the Integra-7. It was cool for what it did, and was promised to be expanded to cover editing more parts of the Integra (it can only edit the SN-S tones, for instance). It was never updated, the version on the app store is the same as was there in the beginning. You can't even edit the drawbars in the organ engine!

.


I don't quite follow. You make these Fantom predictions based on how Roland handled or managed an editor for iPad.

I don't accept Roland has some major support flaw that will rear up on Fantom soon.

Thats my 2 cents. Not wanting to argue. If Roland recently blew off support of the FA or another expensive keyboard, that might be a closer compare or solid example.

My position is that none of these co's are perfect. IMO.


Well, it's not just the Integra iPad editor. The Integra is the one I owned, so sticks in my head. When I was looking at possibly getting the FA (and got the Kronos instead), there were plenty of other examples of "minimal support past first release" in Roland's line that contributed to me saying "no," or at least, "nothing that depends on integration with external devices / software that will require updates as the world marches on".

And the idea that the SuperNatural Acoustic sounds are "coming" for the Fantom is something I can only find faint rumors for, no direct claims in the literature. So I wouldn't be buying now if I was depending upon that coming in the future. (A pointer to a solid promise in writing would weaken my stance here slightly).

Now, these are good rules of thumb for any manufacturer. Don't count on hardware products to keep up with the upgrade cycles of the software world; evenually those features will be orphaned by the latest Windows or Mac OS or iOS or Android upgrade. And promised future features are often long in coming, and may fall short of expectations when actually delivered.

Apart from the iPad editor, the Integra-7 itself has so many things that I consider faults that could have been fixed in the firmware, and never were, that I admit it biases my opinion here. (A class compliant keyboard in the front USB port receives only power from it, you need MIDI cables to play the instrument. SN Synth can't map arbitrary CCs to internal knobs; no mod-matrix at all. No way to use CC's for drawbars in the organ emulation. If your keyboard sends only program changes, not bank changes, the Integra-7 will get confused and stop responding to program changes at all -- and sometimes crash the ipad editor if attached. Etc.)
_________________
Equipment: Kronos 2 61, Kronos X 61, JP-08, Integra-7, Miniak, JV-1080, Ensoniq VFX & VFX-SD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8198
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="stevewahl"]
GregC wrote:
stevewahl wrote:




My position is that none of these co's are perfect. IMO.


Well, it's not just the Integra iPad editor. The Integra is the one I owned, so sticks in my head. When I was looking at possibly getting the FA (and got the Kronos instead), there were plenty of other examples of "minimal support past first release" in Roland's line that contributed to me saying "no," or at least, "nothing that depends on integration with external devices / software that will require updates as the world marches on".


Apart from the iPad editor, the Integra-7 itself has so many things that I consider faults that could have been fixed in the firmware, and never were, that I admit it biases my opinion here)


ok, I read you are not satisfied with the Integra.

If I had a somewhat similar experience, of dissatisfaction, I sell that product.

I see its in your gear list.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
stevewahl



Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

ok, I read you are not satisfied with the Integra.

If I had a somewhat similar experience, of dissatisfaction, I sell that product.

I see its in your gear list.


I might sell it someday. But, all products have flaws. I do not use the Integra on a regular basis because of the flaws I mention, but it still may find some use from time to time.

My point, however, is not that I'm disappointed in the Integra-7, but that my experience with Roland's track record tells me, even more than the average industry track record, do not spend money if you're not content with the device in its current form, and consider whether it will still hold value for you if/when integration with external software no longer works because of the continuous upgrade cycle.

(I do tend to keep my instruments longer than a lot of people. Others may not hold them long enough for the continuous upgrade cycle to bite them, I suppose. I have at least one audio interface that would still be useful if the driver hadn't stopped being updated; instead I had to spend money on something else.)
_________________
Equipment: Kronos 2 61, Kronos X 61, JP-08, Integra-7, Miniak, JV-1080, Ensoniq VFX & VFX-SD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stevewahl



Joined: 03 May 2017
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
stevewahl wrote:
... would sell well, even with most of the same stuff under the hood....


Kronos needs a complete overhaul,or better say redesign of hardware that drives GUI. The current design is a bloody joke. When The Combi + Karma plays, try to change a patch …
So much time goes wasted. I always get very frustrated when I modify combis live. Kronos does not use onboard GPU, and we know why, but that’s another story of failed non-Intel chipset onboard.


Missing whether you're agreeing with me or not. I would consider inability to edit a patch while a combi with Karma is playing to be a UI issue. Do you?

After looking under the hood of the Kronos as well as an M3 I repaired the touchscreen on, I was under the impression that the Korg Touchscreen user interface is probably running on a separate microcontroller near the LCD, inheriting the same processor type and GUI code they created for the M3 and perhaps earlier, and that the Intel CPU board was only used as a sound DSP processor (one core on sound engines, one on effects).

As if in the Oasys time frame they were designing their next sound engine ASIC and realized the desktop computer hardware they were running their simulations on was fast approaching being capable of doing the job in real time, and being cheaper than the ASIC at the volume they needed when ASIC NRE expenses were considered.

Anyway, I was thinking if you (they) just threw the current sound architecture on current cheap PC hardware (pick something with some longevity, though), and increase the polyphony and effect numbers to match the new horse power; then perhaps develop a few more sound engines and effects options, but keep the current ones for sound library compatibility, that'd be a great basis. Then you develop a new UI on top of it, throwing out that extra microcontroller and using the PC processor, GPU and video I/O instead.

The UI is where it's at, and it would be no small feat. I do programming work. Nobody has let me at any user-facing interface since the '90s, probably for a good reason. Getting the power of the Kronos into something that is easy and quick to use on the surface, but allows you to dig deep when you need it, is hard to design correctly, even before you get to coding it.

That's what I'd hope to see. Power of the Kronos, but easier to use for most situations.
_________________
Equipment: Kronos 2 61, Kronos X 61, JP-08, Integra-7, Miniak, JV-1080, Ensoniq VFX & VFX-SD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8198
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevewahl wrote:
GregC wrote:

ok, I read you are not satisfied with the Integra.

If I had a somewhat similar experience, of dissatisfaction, I sell that product.

I see its in your gear list.


I might sell it someday. But, all products have flaws. I do not use the Integra on a regular basis because of the flaws I mention, but it still may find some use from time to time.

My point, however, is not that I'm disappointed in the Integra-7, but that my experience with Roland's track record tells me, even more than the average industry track record, do not spend money if you're not content with the device in its current form, and consider whether it will still hold value for you if/when integration with external software no longer works because of the continuous upgrade cycle.

(I do tend to keep my instruments longer than a lot of people. Others may not hold them long enough for the continuous upgrade cycle to bite them, I suppose. I have at least one audio interface that would still be useful if the driver hadn't stopped being updated; instead I had to spend money on something else.)


I am long term, esp if its expensive gear. IMO, once the product is greater than $1800, [ give or take] I am looking at at least 3 yrs of use , ideally 5 yrs or more. The opposite of the impulse purchase or the person that flips gear every year.

Some of this expensive stuff is complex and has features implemented in a different way.
So learning curve is very high. In addition to wrapping my brain around something new, I put a lot of time into it the 1st 60 days of ownership to confirm it meets my requirements.

This is not perfect process but its my cautious attitude.

If I felt burnt and misled by any company I would walk away and have nothing to do with them. Lots of choices out there.
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
GregC
Platinum Member


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8198
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears, at least for my multi track needs on a keyboard, that the Fantom is lacking as a standalone multi track SEQ.

To clarify, I am not talking about banging out a 3 instrument 1 shot recording.

Here is the owner video that explains the issues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRaM3kWpw4w&feature=youtu.be
_________________
Kronos 88. nanoPAD2. Roland FA-07, MBP, UR44
Achieve your musical dreams Smile
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kronoSphere
Senior Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Posts: 418

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello GregC,
Are you sure about that
I have owned a Fantom G8 and it had a very powerful sequencer (both audio + midi) and a very delightful power concerning the effects we could had to each track.
So I am very surprised that the new 2019 Fantom does not have a powerful sequencer.
Bizarre
_________________
trees are going fast.

https://www.lairdeparis.fr

Current Gear : Kronos 88 / Seaboard Rise / Triton Extreme / Roland VP770 / Motif Rack XS / TC Helicon voicelive rack / Audio & VSTi plug-ins connected /wide touchscreen / iPad Pro 512.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Korg Kronos All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next
Page 16 of 19

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group