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Joined: 23 Mar 2012 Posts: 694 Location: Anamosa, IA
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:57 pm Post subject:
So Nord is for the hipsters who want to work within the box that Nord gives them. I just sold my NS3. I agree that if pianos organs and eps are your main focus then it works well. But if you like to split/later and control other gear it’s very limited. The Fantom sounds huge after using the Nord, and is quicker to program on. The sampled sounds on the Nord sound thin... and the synth section is too limited, I couldn’t even pitch mod a supersaw on the Nord, along with the silly fixed split points and two external control channels.[/quote]
I never fully understood the appeal of Nord. I have played them myself, but never got on board. I doubt I will ever get a Nord of any kind. I guess I am old-school and like multiple keyboards on stage.
So Nord is for the hipsters who want to work within the box that Nord gives them.
I'd say it is primarily for performers who value the hands-on real-time control of all the parameters (organ drawbars, synth settings, effects settings, etc., all available simultaneously with no configuration needed), and possibly the light weight (for something of its sounds and capabilities). Also, some feel Nord simply has the best sounding pianos (certainly the widest variety, and routinely upgraded with new options). Or the best organ in a board that ALSO has strong pianos. So there are a bunch of reasons people (hipsters and otherwise) like Nords.
As for working within the box as supplied, that's probably true of most buyers of most boards. I remember reading that service people have found that an extremely high percentage of boards that come in for service still have all the factory patches and have few if any custom patches. If anything, it's probably easier to make custom patches on Nords than on most other boards, with its direct knob interface vs. the extensive menu diving of so many others.
theshinenz wrote:
I agree that if pianos organs and eps are your main focus then it works well. But if you like to split/later and control other gear it’s very limited. The Fantom sounds huge after using the Nord, and is quicker to program on. The sampled sounds on the Nord sound thin... and the synth section is too limited
Yes, Fantom is much more capable, and as I mentioned above, I think that functionally (if not in "vibe" as bb says), Fantom is one of the few boards that competes with the NS3, in giving you a set of dedicated synth controls apart from all the other controls. I'd say organ and travel weight are where it most lags (which are hardly insignificant), but also in piano variety, immediate direct effect manipulation, loading of custom samples, and also probably in some other classic sounds like EPs and mellotrons. But yeah, if the 76-key version weighed 25 lbs, I'd be tempted to swap my NS3 Compact for one. Guess I'm not hipster enough. But since I do need some of those other sounds, I'd have to add something like a Gemini module or a Surface Pro. Bottom line there is that I really like the Fantom's abilities as a MIDI controller and control surface, but its sonic gaps means I'd definitely have to make use of those abilities!
I wonder what the next level of synth engines like the AL-1 or MOD-7 could be. Sorry by IMO anyone implying that those Kronos EXis in particular are in any way out of date or been eaten by the competition tells me that this person obviously didn't spend enough time to experiment/master them.
With the AL-1, I program/reproduce very accurately sounds like JMJ's laser harp synth, ELP's most complex Moog Modular live sounds, all Vangelis' Spiral synths, you name them. Sure it takes effort/time, but this EXi alone can nail pretty much any synth sound if you want to. MOD-7 ? How many Kronos owners out of the 50 000 units sold explored it to maybe one quarter of its potential ? Five percent ?
One can be totally thrilled by the new Roland/Yamaha/Nord thing just out. After all, we can all be blinded from time to time by the usual new-is-better gear acquisition syndrome. But the Kronos, limited in potential ? I'm impressed you already tried everything the AL-1 offers. Below is what's available in each single program.
The way I see it, no one has invented a new type of synthesis (or filter, or effect, for that matter) for a long time. The most recent "discovery" is probably, what, granular synthesis? So mostly I see synth manufacturers repackaging the same synthesis technologies with whatever spin they can put on them to make them new and exciting. Most of the innovation is in the user interfaces, or combining synthesis methods in new and interesting ways, rather than the actual core method of sound creation. So I think I agree, you couldn't ask for a finer VA synth than AL-1 or a finer phase modulation/waveshaping synth than MOD-7, and both of those synth methods are still extremely relevant and current. Maybe you could ask for an even faster processor for more polyphony and even faster oversampling to prevent aliasing in the high registers with audio rate modulations, but I don't find the K to be terribly restrictive as is.
I'm not a pro sound designer, but I would consider myself a pretty knowledgeable/capable amateur. One of my intentions when I bought the K was to use it to design my own sounds. I have certainly done some of this. But one thing I'll say is that I don't find Kronos to be extremely inviting to design sounds on. I have synths that are more fun to program, even if they're lesser synths. So the next iteration, I think, could simply be focused on that. I think that's what Roland was going for with the new Fantom - making it as fun, visual, inspiring and immediate to use as possible. And I think they've been successful from what I've seen in videos.
GregC wrote:
Simply stated, I don't have the time or skill to dive in deep with the UI. Like you do.
The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single footstep. Yeah, I know, thanks for the vast oversimplification right? I do think starting to add these skills to your songwriter's tool kit is worth it. Otherwise, you're completely dependent on others to provide the sounds. At least for me, even though there are some awesome and inspiring presets for sale, they're never quite exactly what I want for my song. And if there is one I want, I might have to buy 500 others to get that one, of which 498 of the others might never get used. Or you have to spend $2-4k on a new keyboard to get new sounds and then find room for the new keyboard.
IMO, the K is not a great machine to learn sound design on. Translating what I know to the Kronos has been slower going than I'd hoped. One issue is that there are SO many distractions, because there's so much there. It's so easy to set out to design a synth lead, and look up and 3 hours have gone by and I'm deep in some Karma rabbit hole that I never intended to be in. I wouldn't want them to dumb it down - just a matter of discipline there. And then a lot of the synths are just absolute monsters (AL-1, MOD-7, STR-1). So many parameters on so many nested tabs. I've learned the most about sound design on synths that are much closer to one knob per function.
Do you have zero interest in sound design? If you have >0 interest, have you ever looked at adding something relatively inexpensive and knobby to your rig (e.g. a deepmind 12d, just as one example, or a prologue if you have some deeper pockets)? Something like that could be a good stepping stone to deciphering something like AL-1. And probably a lot of fun too. Just a thought.
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:20 pm Post subject:
Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:
quot;]
Simply stated, I don't have the time or skill to dive in deep with the UI. Like you do.
The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single footstep. Yeah, I know, thanks for the vast oversimplification right?
1) I do think starting to add these skills to your songwriter's tool kit is worth it. Otherwise, you're completely dependent on others to provide the sounds.
At least for me, even though there are some awesome and inspiring presets for sale, they're never quite exactly what I want for my song. And if there is one I want, I might have to buy 500 others to get that one, of which 498 of the others might never get used.
Or you have to spend $2-4k on a new keyboard to get new sounds and then find room for the new keyboard.
1) IMO, the K is not a great machine to learn sound design on. Translating what I know to the Kronos has been slower going than I'd hoped. One issue is that there are SO many distractions, because there's so much there.
2) It's so easy to set out to design a synth lead, and look up and 3 hours have gone by and I'm deep in some Karma rabbit hole that I never intended to be in. I wouldn't want them to dumb it down - just a matter of discipline there. And then a lot of the synths are just absolute monsters (AL-1, MOD-7, STR-1). So many parameters on so many nested tabs. I've learned the most about sound design on synths that are much closer to one knob per function.
3)Do you have zero interest in sound design? If you have >0 interest, have you ever looked at adding something relatively inexpensive and knobby to your rig (e.g. a deepmind 12d, just as one example, or a prologue if you have some deeper pockets)? Something like that could be a good stepping stone to deciphering something like AL-1. And probably a lot of fun too. Just a thought.
I appreciate your thoughtful suggestions and questions , brother.
Lets connect some of the dots. 1) K is not a good machine to learn sound design. I have heard this from other owners. Its not just you.
So, as a song writer with multiple priorities, and not much patience, Kronos would not be an easy , or a logical place to start.
Here's my bigger picture. I mostly use acoustic type instruments in my tracks. Its a comfort zone.
I might use a synth sound or motion sound 15% of the time.
I would like to combine AL-1, Mod7, CX-3 as multiple tracks in a song.
Simply, the polyphony craps out when I record. Sure, standalone, no problem. I mention this multi track limitation frequently.
Thus , if I can't use it regularly, in a song, I am sure as heck not going to burn several hours every week, learning something I can't use. I am goal oriented and have to get song writing stuff done and promoted.
I spend very little time noodling around on Kronos. 95% of my time is on technique, writing new material, recording, mixing, and promoting. Thats my music production universe.
2) I enjoy synth leads. I have a project to write more aggressive symphonic cinematic rock. I have written a few like this [ Sahara, Desert Heat] and my listener base shot up. Keep in mind, I keep my music portfolio diverse.
If I can't find a factory synth program that is striking for the song, I search out someone talented to create it/offer it.
So thats another example. Its about the entire song , really. The synth is not the entire song . It plays a 24 measure role as a track. Like a star appearance. Thats the way I hear it and thats my approach. Its working.
I hope this makes sense.
3) I like this suggestion. I don't have much time for r/l shopping at a Guitar Center, but I can demo a Prologue or similar. or explore some software synth programs. I have added this to my project list. It will have to really grab me, and get my Muse interested for a synth like Prologue to grab me. On line demos are not captivating for me.
As you might recall, I enjoy native Karma on Kronos. Even with my surface knowledge, I can make it work productively for me. Its an important tool. yes, I gripe that Karma is dormant since 2011. I know it has a huge world of potential as native on Kronos. There's the word again - potential. High level programmers and Korg level sound designers have the skills and tools to quickly bump up potential. Thats what I believe and that what I would like.
I would like that to spur my creativity further. Quickly. Seamlessly. I see Fantom as a good choice for that. I believe its money well spent for my purpose.
Fantom and Kronos can co-exist. And if Korg does something exciting and different, that has a potential place in my home studio. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
I appreciate your thoughtful suggestions and questions , brother.
Lets connect some of the dots.
No argument with anything you've said. I'll just add more random thoughts.
Totally agree on samples of physical/acoustic instruments. I'd rather just buy them. I don't have access to lots of instruments I might want samples of, many I don't know how to play, and it takes a lot of time/effort to meticulously sample an instrument across every pitch and dynamic. Plus great mics & pres. Money well spent to just buy them. I do think that spending some time with an analog synth can still help you get the best of those, though. You've probably seen this tutorial from ksounds. He loads a trumpet sample from one of the KSCs that doesn't load up by default, and proceeds to fine tune it, add performance controls - basically turns it from a raw multi-sample into a nice, playable instrument. HD-1 is more than a wave file player. It's a synth, too.
The more you know about programming synths, the more intuitive things like this become and the more possibilities you see to get mileage from what you have. So learning to create a analog synth lead from scratch might also be instructive as to how to get what you want from a trumpet or sax sample, too. One experiment I like to revisit from time to time is to create an entire song using just one synth. Find a way for it to make the kick, snare, hi-hat, bass, pad, lead sounds - anything I might want in it. I don't normally share those tracks, but i did manage to find one such experiment that I put on soundcloud for whatever reason. All the sounds here are from a Pittsburgh Lifeforms SV-1 analog modular mono-synth, all rolled from scratch - it doesn't even have preset capability. I'll link it here not because I think the track will knock your socks off (it won't), but just to illustrate my point. In doing this I learned a ton about how to approach and get more out the SV-1. And also AL-1. And HD-1.
Back to Korg. Could they create a new workstation keyboard that I'd buy? Yep. What would it take to make it a no-brainer for me to open my wallet immediately and spend, say, 4k?
1. Don't drop anything from Kronos. Only add and make backward compatible.
2. Reboot the whole UI from the ground up. Make it as intuitive, visual, fun, tactile, immediate, and modern as possible
3. Refresh some of the older samples with current ones
4. Bigger, more responsive touch display, with a better viewing angle (preferably adjustable)
5. Faster CPU - more poly across the board
6. Improvements to the sequencer - piano roll, markers, sections. A separate step sequencer would be a nice add
7. A new synth, some new effects, obviously some new presets
Instabuy. Not some novel list though. All these wishes are pretty well documented by K owners throughout this forum. So hopefully if they're working on something it's what the consensus of current owners have been wishing for.
And if you buy a new Fantom please tell us all about it!
Just watched a 30 minute Guitar Center demo of the Fantom. Definitely a nice machine. The UI is obviously more up to date, and I'm sure there are odds and ends that Kronos or Fantom can outdo each other with. They also did a nice job with the sequencing / recording / DAW integration.
While I'm still in the shallow end of the pool with the Kronos, I would imagine I could get to most of the places the Fantom would take me. The wish list features are probably more relevant to the advanced guys here.
As for sound design, the rabbit holes are deep, but since I don't have any musical deadlines or demands I have the luxury of bringing a bag of carrots and just camping out for the fun of it. Lots of knobs and tabs, but since I don't have goals to accomplish it just looks like a gigantic swingset to play on.
I just bought the Kronos this past year but watching the Fantom video didn't give me buyer's remorse. Like the Montage, they seem to be variations on the same theme so I'm happy with what I have. Still, always fun to see the cool new stuff that comes out, even if my wallet is completely safe. _________________ Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:11 pm Post subject:
ChrisDuncan wrote:
Just watched a 30 minute Guitar Center demo of the Fantom. Definitely a nice machine. The UI is obviously more up to date, and I'm sure there are odds and ends that Kronos or Fantom can outdo each other with. They also did a nice job with the sequencing / recording / DAW integration.
While I'm still in the shallow end of the pool with the Kronos, I would imagine I could get to most of the places the Fantom would take me. The wish list features are probably more relevant to the advanced guys here.
As for sound design, the rabbit holes are deep, but since I don't have any musical deadlines or demands I have the luxury of bringing a bag of carrots and just camping out for the fun of it. Lots of knobs and tabs, but since I don't have goals to accomplish it just looks like a gigantic swingset to play on.
I just bought the Kronos this past year but watching the Fantom video didn't give me buyer's remorse. Like the Montage, they seem to be variations on the same theme so I'm happy with what I have. Still, always fun to see the cool new stuff that comes out, even if my wallet is completely safe.
If you watch the Scott Tibbs Fantom demos, this is my advice:
400,000 pennies will get it done . I have already started _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
400,000 pennies will get it done . I have already started
Nice song!
Now step away from my wallet and keep those fingers where I can see them. I'm still learning how to use the last $4k toy I bought. No need for any new keyboards here. Move along. Move along...
Of course, now I have to go watch the Scott Tibbs demos. _________________ Studio: Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Yamaha TF5 | Mackie MCU | CMC AI, QC
Keyboard Station: Kronos 2 88 | Fantom 7 | JV 2080 | Cubase 13 | Windows 10 | Focusrite 18i20 | CMC TP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris Duncan
Atlanta, GA, USA, Earth
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:39 pm Post subject:
1) I don't normally share those tracks, but i did manage to find one such experiment that I put on soundcloud for whatever reason. All the sounds here are from a Pittsburgh Lifeforms SV-1 analog modular mono-synth, all rolled from scratch - it doesn't even have preset capability. I'll link it here not because I think the track will knock your socks off (it won't), but just to illustrate my point. In doing this I learned a ton about how to approach and get more out the SV-1. And also AL-1. And HD-1.
Back to Korg. Could they create a new workstation keyboard that I'd buy? Yep. What would it take to make it a no-brainer for me to open my wallet immediately and spend, say, 4k?
1. Don't drop anything from Kronos. Only add and make backward compatible.
2). 2) Reboot the whole UI from the ground up. Make it as intuitive, visual, fun, tactile, immediate, and modern as possible
3. Refresh some of the older samples with current ones
4. Bigger, more responsive touch display, with a better viewing angle (preferably adjustable)
5. Faster CPU - more poly across the board
6. Improvements to the sequencer - piano roll, markers, sections. A separate step sequencer would be a nice add
7. A new synth, some new effects, obviously some new presets
Instabuy. Not some novel list though. All these wishes are pretty well documented by K owners throughout this forum. So hopefully if they're working on something it's what the consensus of current owners have been wishing for.
And if you buy a new Fantom please tell us all about it![/quote]
1] very clever ! You put a lot into this to get a tonal variety. It reminds me somewhat of the great Brian Eno.
2) I wouldn't be surprised if Korg started over again, assuming they have a project plan in progress- for a new concept production synthesizer.
My reading vision is going to sh&^, and any keyboard I buy has to have a blinding clear LCD. Tiny fonts are frustrating. If I was starting over, from zero, I doubt I could handle Kronos touch screen with its crowded tiny details.
If I can't read the detail, the keyboard is almost useless. Of course, I have decades of finger memory built up on Korg navigation _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
1] very clever ! You put a lot into this to get a tonal variety. It reminds me somewhat of the great Brian Eno.
2) I wouldn't be surprised if Korg started over again, assuming they have a project plan in progress- for a new concept production synthesizer.
My reading vision is going to sh&^, and any keyboard I buy has to have a blinding clear LCD. Tiny fonts are frustrating. If I was starting over, from zero, I doubt I could handle Kronos touch screen with its crowded tiny details.
If I can't read the detail, the keyboard is almost useless. Of course, I have decades of finger memory built up on Korg navigation
Well, thanks. Likewise, dig your Pennies track. Nice chord progression and tones! Might as well save those pennies - they aren't useful on their own anymore.
Totally agreed on the fonts. You reminded me: one other thing I think would be an awesome feature is screen recording. Due to the angle, the choice of LCD, IMO it's very difficult to record a good demo/tutorial of the Kronos. There are a lot of knowledgeable people who don't seem to mind taking time to share what they know about what is an extremely deep synth. Why not make that super easy for them, and encourage knowledge sharing and community building around the product.
400,000 pennies will get it done . I have already started
Nice song!
Now step away from my wallet and keep those fingers where I can see them. I'm still learning how to use the last $4k toy I bought. No need for any new keyboards here. Move along. Move along...
Of course, now I have to go watch the Scott Tibbs demos.
Thx for the listen, Chris !
I am not a salesperson for Roland, honest. Anyway, its all subliminal _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Fantom 8 Loose Screen issues
Purgatory wrote:
Seems a good few new owners are seeing this problem and the stores with demo units for the 6,7 and 8 models.
My 6 is rock solid... to be honest you'd have to push pretty hard to even notice movement... the Fantom touch screen response is very good and you only need to touch very lightly to get it to respond, no double/triple presses to select something like on the Kronos.
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Fantom 8 Loose Screen issues
theshinenz wrote:
[qu
My 6 is rock solid... to be honest you'd have to push pretty hard to even notice movement... the Fantom touch screen response is very good and you only need to touch very lightly to get it to respond, no double/triple presses to select something like on the Kronos.
I think its very cool you got a Fantom quickly. I am not concerned if a few don't like it. Everyone has their own music requirements.
If there are some defects, I believe Roland or the dealer will quickly solve it.
I am very interested in the clarity and contrast of the Fantom LCD. My reading vision has declined, and I can't handle super tiny fonts. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
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But since I do need some of those other sounds, I'd have to add something like a Gemini module or a Surface Pro. Bottom line there is that I really like the Fantom's abilities as a MIDI controller and control surface, but its sonic gaps means I'd definitely have to make use of those abilities!
I do think starting to add these skills to your songwriter's tool kit is worth it. Otherwise, you're completely dependent on others to provide the sounds. At least for me, even though there are some awesome and inspiring presets for sale, they're never quite exactly what I want for my song. And if there is one I want, I might have to buy 500 others to get that one, of which 498 of the others might never get used. Or you have to spend $2-4k on a new keyboard to get new sounds and then find room for the new keyboard.
