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Will the New Fantom Motivate Korg ?
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The quality of the sequencer not the only thing lacking on the new Fantoms.

So far the ONLY real plus I recognize is their UI/control surface. And even that does NOT include their too small display.

The sound offer on the new Fantoms is just heavily lacking for my ears, in many areas. To a degree, that my possible interest came down to absolutely zero in no time. My 10 years old Kronos offers SO MUCH more, concerning sonic quality and flexbility, that I regard the new Fantoms as truly miserable in this regard meanwhile.
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Last edited by jimknopf on Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronoSphere wrote:
Hello GregC,
Are you sure about that
I have owned a Fantom G8 and it had a very powerful sequencer (both audio + midi) and a very delightful power concerning the effects we could had to each track.
So I am very surprised that the new 2019 Fantom does not have a powerful sequencer.
Bizarre


watch the video. especially when the fellow talks about 'section recording '.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
It's not the only thing lacking on the new Fantoms,

So far the ONLY real plus I see is the UI/control surface. And even that does NOT include the too small display.

The sound offer on the new Fantoms is just heavily lacking for my ears, in many areas. To a degree, that my possible interest came down to absolutely zero in no time. My 10 years old Kronos offers SO MUCH more, concerning sonic quality and flexbility, that I regard the new Fantoms as truly miserable in this regard meanwhile.


I have to wear reading glasses to get around the Kronos LCD. Fortunately , I have 8 years of finger muscle memory. Otherwise, the Kronos tiny font in the sub menus is a struggle for me.

Reading the darn LCD is my #1 priority. Fortunately, the contrast and color of the Fantom LCD and even the MODX LCD is strong enough for my creppy reading vision. No reading glasses required for me on these 2 new keyboards.

while the Fantom was #1 on my purchase list, this SEQ thing is now a deal breaker. I hope I am wrong, and going to study it further.

Guitars on Fantom did not move me. [ 6 string]. excellent guitars are a strong priority and it appears Roland didn't improve on them. Actually, some of the FX on them have to be removed.

For example, MODX guitars sound very good. I had a similar expectation from Fantom, what the heck, its a $4000 keyboard, guitars should kick ass.

Its taking a lot of time to snorkel dive on the Fantom. I am still waiting on NAMM 2020 before I purchase another expensive board.
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it is, the Fantom leaves much to be desired.
I don't understand why Roland chose to reinvent the sequencer wheel by forcing users into a 32-bar, either 3/4 or 4/4, clip-mode of constructing songs.
Ableton Live works with clips, only it's much more elaborate and it has a lot more in the way of sample editing functions than Roland's sequencer not to mention the interface.
I cannot fit the Fantom's sequencer as it is into my way of working.

Additionally, -and this is much worse-, I regularly hear reports of a complete freezes of the Fantom, not just by one or two users, but by various people who bought the Fantom.
This is really not acceptable.
With the complexity of today's instruments there will always be bugs upon release, but a showstopper should not occur on an instrument in this price range.

Reading the review of the Fantom in SOS magazine the Fantom allegedly has been in development from 2011, and it puzzles me all the more that Roland decided to focus on old school PCM samples and make performance optimized SN acoustic instruments a lower priority.
As if they are stuck into a nineties time loop.
I really don't understand that decision, because the inclusion of SN acoustic instruments upon release would have added significantly to the value of a Fantom.
So if you are looking for great guitar patches, I don't think the Fantom is a good candidate.
What I wrote is also true for the Ax-Edge: you'd be inclined to think Roland might have included some SN guitars as well as a proper editor (especially since the synth engine is very capable and elaborate), but no, they introduced it and seem to have abandoned it.
So I don't have much confidence in rumors about future updates.
The Fantom has some great patches, but I expect more from a workstation selling at 4000 Euros for the 88 key version.

As far as the Kronos is concerned, I see the Kronos 2015 edition still in stock everywhere (at 800-900 Euros less than the Fantom), while the SE still sells for the same price as the Fantom .
All in all I'm not so sure if KORG has the introduction of a successor planned for this NAMM, and I fear that maybe KORG will decide to milk the KRONOS cow once more.
But the current KRONOS still is much more of a workstation to me than the Fantom.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was very surprised to read that 2011 development start date in SOS, also.

And here we are in 2019 shredding it.

To expand on your point about guitars, a topic I am a broken record on.

Now it hits me- the keyboard co's are not interested in excellent guitars.

Guitar VST's are simply too good.
And they are cheap and many.

And keyboard players, esp the cover band types could care less about guitars.
Go figure.

So our favorite co's , lets say Roland and Korg, don't spend much time on the many variations of my favorite 6 string instrument.

I rest my case on that topic. And zero interest in arrangers here.
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to guitar (and also other 'real world instruments') it's hard to beat the libraries which are out there.
I have guitar libraries from Orange Tree Samples which are indistinguishable from a real guitar.
And since I lack the skill of playing a guitar properly these kind of libraries are a huge blessing.

I only wish manufacturers would make the effort of designing a next generation master keyboard, one which not only integrates with the software but also one which allows for polyphonic aftertouch, modulation through sideways motion on the key (like on the GX-1), and a big ribbon right above the keybed.
I have a Roli Rise 49, but it still feels a bit odd to play on it.
The ideal controller would have 'normal' keys with the extras I mentioned above.

But as far as emulation of acoustic instruments is concerned, the best effort in hardware you will find in a high end arranger such as the Genos (not in the least thanks to the stellar onboard effects).
Unfortunately you will search in vain for that kind of quality in the factory ROM of a workstation.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for mentioning Orange Tree

The Roli is also on my shopping list. I see dozens of used ROLI Seaboards here in the US.

How do you like the included software ? I think its called Equator
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I'm qualified to evaluate Equator since I haven't delved into it (yet).
I only auditioned a few presets, and since they left me cold I didn't bother to get to know Equator better.
A shame really, since it is specifically written with a controller such as the Seaboard in mind.
I bought the Seaboard Rise 49 this year during one of Roli's cashback promotions combined with a discount at a music store, and I still am getting used to the feel which is very different from a key-based instrument.
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Eduardo_Arg
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi friends:

Although new Fantom looks "better" than the old one, in anyway beats Kronos.-
I must agree with some users about sounds, just for example, Kronos accoustic piano, digital ones, guitar and string, sounds fantastic; Roland ones are quite similar to JV series, too old for me.-
The only thing i like of new Fantom is the wheels in conjunction with joystick.-
In the last 3 years i must replace Kronos joystick, that is an unpredictable issue.- Having wheels may solve it.-
Roland price as Yamaha price are too high in comparision with Kronos, and both of them don't offer much for that price.-
I love my Kronos, and only will change for a new one. So don't loose time testing Roland and Yamaha.-
Kronos is the King.-
Regards.
Eduardo
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eduardo_Arg wrote:
Hi f
I love my Kronos, and only will change for a new one.

-So don't loose time testing Roland and Yamaha.-

Regards.
Eduardo


wish you could have told me that 2 months ago Wink
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yeskeys
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a halfway decent production, I would almost always find a local guitar player to track using the audio tracks in the Kronos sequencer. There are so many amazing guitarists in the population, probably at least ten times as many as accomplished keyboardists, that in my world it only makes sense. Same thing with sax solos if necessary. There are just some instruments where the real thing instantly makes an emulation sound cheesy.

Just my opinion. I'm a much better guitarist than keyboardist, that the only guitar parts I'd let fly on Kronos would be some picked acoustic or other somesuch realistic emulations.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeskeys wrote:
For a halfway decent production, I would almost always find a local guitar player to track using the audio tracks in the Kronos sequencer. There are so many amazing guitarists in the population, probably at least ten times as many as accomplished keyboardists, that in my world it only makes sense. Same thing with sax solos if necessary. There are just some instruments where the real thing instantly makes an emulation sound cheesy.

Just my opinion. I'm a much better guitarist than keyboardist, that the only guitar parts I'd let fly on Kronos would be some picked acoustic or other somesuch realistic emulations.


in terms of number of guitarists and in principle, I agree. A guitarist and sax player with skill is the ideal way to go.

I have found that logistics, getting everyone on the same page is the obstacle.

At the end of the day, rolling my own gets it done. If you are curious what I get done with guitar on keys check out my " Sahara " , "Space on Earth ", and " Nowhere Going Fast ".
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ITguy54
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I think the original question should also be asked about the Kurzweil PC4. It has several sound engines, including drawbar organ, and FM, and VA. It has some features I didn't know about including riff generators. While it can be argued that the Kronos still offers more, let's face it: it has several engines that are VA, designed around emulating specific Korg analog synths from the past. But is it really accurate to count all the different VA engines separately? I don't think so.

But if Korg is still selling enough Kronos units, what is their motivation for an update?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ITguy54 wrote:
Personally I think the original question should also be asked about the Kurzweil PC4. It has several sound engines, including drawbar organ, and FM, and VA. It has some features I didn't know about including riff generators. While it can be argued that the Kronos still offers more, let's face it: it has several engines that are VA, designed around emulating specific Korg analog synths from the past. But is it really accurate to count all the different VA engines separately? I don't think so.

But if Korg is still selling enough Kronos units, what is their motivation for an update?


The Kurz PC certainly has grown/evolved over the years. I am very interested in it. And hope to find it for a good spin.

However the 4" LCD , even with contrast isn't a wow size. The navigation looks ok, but does not scream 'tomorrow '. What keyboard players like is subjective.

With Korg its a question of we don't know what we don't know.

We don't know how well the K is selling with the latest keyboard competition. We don't know what Korg's game plan is since they are historically quiet about new products.

Either way, speaking for myself, I can wait until NAMM.
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kronoSphere
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite interesting review of the Roland Fantom here :
https://fr.audiofanzine.com/synthetiseur-hybride-analogique-numerique/roland/fantom-7/editorial/tests/test-du-synthetiseur-hybride-roland-fantom.html

We can find also a review about the V3 of the Kurzwel Forte Workstation
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