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Food for Thought
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am 99% sure Yamaha and Korg share info for some years.

I think MODX was a good step forward.

The affordable FA was never a competitor for the Kronos.
More like Krome.

My guess is that Roland calculated that the w/s niche was well covered with Montage/MODX and Kronos.

I think Kronos was a 1 of a kind. It was near perfect in every way in 2011.

I am skeptic about using 'history ' , as a guide for 2020. Too many other cost and tech issues creating uncertainty.
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danmusician
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

19naia wrote:
Yamaha and Roland are also not moving ahead in next generation workstations to top Kronos or Montage.
So the stalemate is not just at Korg, or else we would not be here speculating about it if we could just go to Roland or Yamaha for the next generation gear to move Kronos behind the times.


Good point. I wish I included it in my original comment. Back in the day, we had leap-frog innovation in workstation technology. One company would add a feature and another would top it, spurring innovation. Those days seem to be gone.

The lack of interest at Yamaha and Roland in the W/S market make me think it's dying off.

I loved my Chevy Impala. But automakers have decided the large sedan market is dead. I bought a AWD smaller car instead. Times change.
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danmusician
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
I am skeptic about using 'history ' , as a guide for 2020. Too many other cost and tech issues creating uncertainty.


Agreed!
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danmusician
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting change from my perspective is our obsession with interior components of the Kronos. In the days of the M1/T1/01w/Triton, etc, we never knew or cared what was under the hood. It was all about sound and features. With the Kronos, some users have become so obsessed with processing power that they've lost the joy of using the instrument.
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danmusician
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some users have been unhappy with the polyphony limitations of the Kronos. I get that. But consider this perspective: limitations can spur creativity. How do I get around limitations and make them work for me? The 01/W had 32 voices (16 stereo!) How do I voice chords and use voices efficiently to create the best song possible?

From the classical world, G.F. Handel was a master at this. We consider "The Messiah" to be a masterwork today, performed by large choirs with orchestra. But he wrote it for a road trip from London to Dublin. The original choir was only about 16 singers, so he didn't divide 4 part SATB to 8 part SSAATTBB. This is unusual for a master choral work. He didn't know what quality the available orchestra would be. He took a violinist and trumpeter with him and kept the solo lines confined mostly to those instruments. He famously wrote the entire 3 hour work in 24 days. I have to think the limitations actually made him more creative and resulted in a more powerful work.

The Kronos has a lot of capability. Even with it's limitations, there's plenty of great music in there waiting to come out!
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

danmusician wrote:
. In the days of the M1/T1/01w/Triton, etc, we never knew or cared what was under the hood. It was all about sound and features. With the Kronos, some users have become so obsessed with processing power that they've lost the joy of using the instrument.


I think that's true. Moore's Law has created a herd for ' bigger/faster/better/cheaper '.

Getting the multiple engines on a keyboard was a game changer { Oasys }.

Getting the cost down for that was a 1 of a kind event- Kronos.

One thing not mentioned- if/when Kronos goes away , what will happen to all the Korg sponsored 3rd Party Library producers ?

They are 1 of the keys to extending Kronos life into year 8.

I also suspect they have a phone connection to Korg HQ/Japan.
They have skin in the game. I get it, their lips are zipped $$$.
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19naia
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am moving to a new state when i get back to USA.
I am still in South America for two more months before i head back home to USA.
I arranged to ship my car but got no follow up after giving the shipper all the details about shipping my Kronos and attachments.
Also wondering about it holding up during shipment.

So that brings me to just leaving Kronos in storage where it is now and getting a cheap simple keyboard when i arrive my new home, one to play just for fun.

Of course a cheap simple keyboard means going back to limitations and i was wondering if i could handle that but decided i could if i could make a midi recording file of two of the Karma phrases i use, and i already have my favorite Kronos drum patterns stored in my Boss DR.880.
So take the DR880 with me in my backpack and maybe get an FA or MODX where i can use the Karma phrase midi data as a user arp pattern.

I suspect that simplification will make me more portable for getting in with other musicians, and force me to get creative.
I will have too much work to do anyway, the first month there... so it may be better to go without Kronos.

Also I stocked up on some extra virtual instruments on my iPad.
And i may even be able to go really cheap and simple on a keyboard to play
iPad instruments.
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beatmincer



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos has got to be one of the most successful Korg projects ever. It was the follow-up on the Oasys platform, improving on price and usability to really hit the market sweet spot.

Apart from taking the computer world's softsynth concept and packaging it in a hardware synth format, they added crucial live performance functionality like Karma and set list features.

They have since multiplied that concept over a number of platforms, Krome, Kross etc but also the Gadget and stand-alone VST/AU synths.

Japanese business tradition is all about continuous improvement. In that regard It could be argued that the Kronos is a successor of the Korg M1! Very Happy

Korg dominates the workstation market for a good reason, and will IMHO continue to do so for the foreseeable future, at least that is my prediction. Not everyone wants to haul a PC to the gig - a device that was made to do everything and anything. Korg took that PC, made its own OS, hardened it and put the whole shebang into a robust, giggable and beautiful live performance machine.

In the best of worlds, a "Kronos 3" makes use of a NUC-form factor motherboard, making it possible to give the Kronos 2 a serious performance upgrade, together with support for one or two new synth engines (wavetable and a granular loop engine? Arp?).

That's just wishful thinking on my part. I just ordered a Kronos 2 61 last week, fully aware of the possibility of Korg releasing a follow-up flagship model at NAMM next year.
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kronoSphere
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fantom G8 was (and still is) so excellent. Then : Why making the FA that is far worse ? Why making the mo and mox series which are worse too ??? Since years I no more see in a music store (what a word !!!) a group of people all around a keyboard and saying "Whaoooh !" The solitude and emptiness of the workstation vendor is great these days ! And his ears also ! And fortunately on the front doir of the store, these words : "Please don't play Led Zep' !!!"
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Hector Space



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the K2 Motherboard. There is no reason why Korg could not introduce a 'mid life update' that replaced the Motherboard with one which wasn't obsolete. They'd probably need a service OS update to match it. Nord have issued several OS updates on their Stage and Electro ranges to cover component changes. This doesn't mean the product spec itself changes, it just means it can be sold and serviced.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hector Space wrote:
Regarding the K2 Motherboard. There is no reason why Korg could not introduce a 'mid life update' that replaced the Motherboard with one which wasn't obsolete. They'd probably need a service OS update to match it. Nord have issued several OS updates on their Stage and Electro ranges to cover component changes. This doesn't mean the product spec itself changes, it just means it can be sold and serviced.


The Nord is 1 engine , correct ? We know how many Kronos has. Not certain thats a comparison

More power more heat

how would the heat of the new mobo be managed ?
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronoSphere wrote:
The Fantom G8 was (and still is) so excellent. Then : Why making the FA that is far worse ? W"


Yes, The G8 was a formidable w/s.

But I have been reading that parts are hard to find or not available.

Thus, I would be cautious about it, for a used purchase. I passed on it and got the FA
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Hector Space



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Hector Space wrote:
Regarding the K2 Motherboard. There is no reason why Korg could not introduce a 'mid life update' that replaced the Motherboard with one which wasn't obsolete. They'd probably need a service OS update to match it. Nord have issued several OS updates on their Stage and Electro ranges to cover component changes. This doesn't mean the product spec itself changes, it just means it can be sold and serviced.


The Nord is 1 engine , correct ? We know how many Kronos has. Not certain thats a comparison

More power more heat

how would the heat of the new mobo be managed ?


In general newer chipsets and processors use less power to do the same amount of work. The point was it is perfectly possible for Korg to find alternative pc clone motherboards that could be used to replicate the K2's current performance. Sure they may need to modify the linux distro to work with a different chip set, but it certainly can be done within the current heat budget of the K2.

Nord use an off-the-shelf DSP based system. Their Electro has three engines (Organ, Piano, Sample). The Stage 4 (Organ, Piano, Sample+ Synth) x 2.

The point was simply that obsolete components can be managed within a product lifecycle without changing the product's spec.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Hector Space"]
GregC wrote:
Hector Space wrote:
Regarding the K2 Motherboard. There
The Nord is 1 engine , correct ? We know how many Kronos has. Not certain thats a comparison

More power more heat

how would the heat of the new mobo be managed ?


In general newer chipsets and processors use less power to do the same amount of work. The point was it is perfectly possible for Korg to find alternative pc clone motherboards that could be used to replicate the K2's current performance. Sure they may need to modify the linux distro to work with a different chip set, but it certainly can be done within the current heat budget of the K2.

Nord use an off-the-shelf DSP based system. Their Electro has three engines (Organ, Piano, Sample). The Stage 4 (Organ, Piano, Sample+ Synth) x 2.

The point was simply that obsolete components can be managed within a product lifecycle without changing the product's spec.


Many K owners would want more bang for the Buck with a newer moBo/processor.

There is a very long wish list of features needed/requested.

If the above suggestion + the supporting OS would solve half of the long wish list, K owners would be ecstatic.

Of course, there has to be a profit benefit for Korg. They are not in component reseller business.

Keep in mind, many years are going by.
And at some point, if Korg is going to make a move, they might simpley
start all over and bypass the limits on every corner of this 'old ' architecture.

BTW, I think Nord is the best keyboard company.
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SKung
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:

And at some point, if Korg is going to make a move, they might simpley
start all over and bypass the limits on every corner of this 'old ' architecture.


Does Korg really have to make a move? When I take a look on the market for workstation flagships I find two products: Kronos and Montage.

Korg did its last bigger move 2011 with the first Kronos, Yamaha followed 2016 with the Montage.

Both sides have been updating their platforms in the last years.
Any reason for bringing out a complete new product line and throwing away Montage or Kronos?

And if they have reasons and currently work on a new 'big bang' (64bit OS with GPU-computing), they won't tell you until the press release on the next NAMM Wink
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