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Kronos CX-3 vs Hammond Clone
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Arni61



Joined: 11 Dec 2016
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Kronos CX-3 vs Hammond Clone Reply with quote

What do you think?
Whats better a Hammond Clone as Hammond SK-1 or the CX-3 engine in Kronos2 ?
Is the purchase of a separate Hammond clone if you own Kronos2 (CX-3) ?
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karmathanever
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Joined: 12 Jan 2004
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Location: Australia (Oz !!)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Arnie

This is an interesting question and becomes personal depending on "what you use your keyboards for"
I mean - do you gig a lot?
Do you play the "Hammod B3/Leslie" sound a lot?
etc...etc..
Quote:
Is the purchase of a separate Hammond clone if you own Kronos2 (CX-3) ?

My short answer is "NO".
I was playing in a blues band a little while ago and was primarily needing the B3/Leslie sound for most songs.
My Kronos was great for that as it has full flexibility in all the tone wheel/Rotary settings you would ever want.
However, I did find that switching from one CX3 program to another would often change the control surface set up (button allocations changed... e.g. button for 3rd HP etc.)
What I love about the Kronos CX3 engine is the fact that you can visually see if the Rotary is fast/slow/stop.

So I need to change all my favourite CX3 programs to have the same control surface configuration.
If you buy ksounds "Organimation" package, they have standardised the control surface in all their CX3 programs.

Also I own a Roland VR09 and whilst this is a lower-end cheaper keyboard, its B3/Leslie emulation is well up there with Nord and it has a great control surface (plus great iPad app for performance)

My friend has the SK1 and I quite like it but it does lack a few controls (for me) and doesn't retain all settings in its "registrations".

Don't know if my waffling here helps at all......

Cheers

Pete Very Happy
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Arizona Sage
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm wrestling with this idea as well. For me, it's more about weighted vs non weighted keys. I am running the KX88. So far, I'm used to the weighted action but bet it would be easier on a controller board.
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mikelees
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Joined: 21 Mar 2012
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Location: Chelmsford, UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before I got the Kronos, I had a Hammond clone (Numa Organ 2). Initially, I found that the stock CX3 patches didn't compare well to the clone, but since getting K-Sounds Organimation for Kronos, I find that I've hardly used the Numa Organ at all. I don't need the Hammond sound enough to justify carrying a second board.

The real difference is whether you need a waterfall keybed- I find that the RH3 action on the K2 73 is OK for rakes and palm smears on the occasional song if you're careful - wouldn't like to do this all the time though. The one thing RH3 can't do well is one note trills. Before Kronos, I had an M3 with the synth action keybed, and even that was too slow - I've never played a K61, but I've heard the keybed is similar to M3, so I suspect that is also too slow.

Perhaps CX3 with a dedicated waterfall midi controller (Studiologic, Doepfer) would be a good combination - although you would need to reach to the Kronos to adjust the drawbar sliders, as they can't be controlled via CC.
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Perilous
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Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The CX-3 in the Kronos sounds great. The rotary sim annoys me somehow, but I'm sure I could have tweaked it to my liking of I spent the time on it.

At this point, I think it comes down to how you want to play, and not necessarily how the Kronos sounds vs other clones. I bought a Hammond XK-5 and now I can't live without it. I can't do what I want without realtime control over all the drawbars and two manuals. One Kronos for organ is too limiting, and with only 9 faders at a time. If you want to jump on the organ and really grind your heels into it, it's a Sk2, Mojo, Nord C2D or bust. Those price tags though...

If I could only have two keyboards, one would be a Kronos, the other would be an organ. For sure.
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studio429
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pondering getting a Roland VR09 as the top deck of my live rig specifically for organ work. I love the organ in the Kronos but I own a 73 and 88 and for glides and some organ work it's killed my hands to be honest. I've given the VR09 an extensive workout and it's great value for money, and up there with a Nord.
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Drummond
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a hammond xk1c and while in my opinion it sounds better, is a lot more tweakable than the cx3 engine in kronos and has a better leslie effect, the kronos is not far behind and with carefull programming and using Dave Polich's tips for kronos' leslie I can get nice sounds from both. But overall I prefer the hammond and have not been using cx3 unless I can't take 2 keyboards with me.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your Kronos is a weighted action model and you want to enhance organ playing, I think there is definitely a benefit to getting a second board with a more organ-friendly action. It's an interesting question as to what other characteristics you'd like that board to have. If there is no other sound or functionality that you find lacking in the Kronos, there is something to be said for making that second board a clonewheel, which may give you better organ sound (subjective) but will also give you, besides the action, better organ ergonomics with drawbars that look and feel more like drawbars, and dedicated labeled controls for other organ functions. If you don't care about any of that, you could save money by going for a lower priced board (even a soundless controller). Or you might like some board that brings some different sounds or functionality to the rig while also giving you a better action to play organ on. For example, you could select something like a Yamaha MX/MOXF if you like Yamaha sounds that have their own character, or you could select a knobby analog or VA synth that will give you, again, another sonic character to play with as well as some other interface ergonomics you might enjoy.

As for the organ sound itself, whether you stick with the Kronos for that it get that sound elsewhere, many people find that adding a Ventilator pedal gives it a little more edge in emulating the Leslie speaker and its overdrive.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone tried a virtual Hammond B-3X from IK Multimedia. They claim is been created in close collaboration with both the Hammond Organ Company, and Suzuki Musical Instruments.

Some links:

1. https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/hammondb3x/
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfOBxJQrjBo
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Falcon2e
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with many of the above comments. You may notice in my profile that my other KB is a Nord. For me the Nord sounds much closer to a real B3 (yes I've owned one). But, having said that, there are certain organ songs that the Kronos does a great job on. I find that having both gives me the flexibility I need to pull it off live.
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janrhansen



Joined: 10 Jan 2019
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Kronos 2 73, wich was a long needed upgrade for my lower board covering Piano/Brass/strings/synth etc. I purchased a Crumar Mojo61 a couple years ago, short after it came out, and I am only using the cx-3 engine for a few special patches where I really need the organ sound combined in a way I just can't do with the Mojo via midi, and where the sound of the organ doesn't matter a whole lot. All other organ is played on the Mojo.

The cx-3 engine is imo a total flop and fail by Korg. It doesn't stand a chance against a real clonewheel, and its so apart set up in its config that I really wonder what the designers where thinking. They surely werent looking at how a Hammond B3 is set up.

But if you really just want an organ sounds here and there and like that you can program it individually or together with other sounds, layered/split it can hold itself against most rompler boards, but if your an organ player by heart its not a good choice.

Its like the fact that just because an instrument happens to have 9 faders that can be set up as control for drawbars doesn't make it ideal. A real drawbar setup and dedicated buttons placed just somewhat like the real deal makes a lot of diff to an organ player, just like they will want the 12 inverse color keys for preset, wich have absolutely nothing to do with the sound.
its all up to the individual if these things matter or not, and wether you like the sound. Again personly I don't like the sound of the CX-3 engine very much, but it can be set up to sound decent for some use and in a mix with other sounds.

I think the problem is the CX3 engine was originally designed over 20 years ago for the Oasys and have only gotten a single tiny upgrade on the Kronos, where as the tech in clonewheels in general have moved far ahead of Korg in 2 decades.

For me the Mojo was the best mix between compactness and hands on control, and it features one of the best organ engines and leslie sims out there in one unit I wish I could combine it with the multicontact keys of the Hammond XK-5 for a price closer to the Mojo than the expensive XK-5 Smile
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janrhansen



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
Has anyone tried a virtual Hammond B-3X from IK Multimedia. They claim is been created in close collaboration with both the Hammond Organ Company, and Suzuki Musical Instruments.


It looks promising. watched the video with Jim Alfredson https://youtu.be/dQ2KNLXt_3c

It sounds very nice, and the leslie sim (released earlier and available seperate) is hands down the best sim you can get. Sounds absolutely amazing. imo even the very popular Ventilator sounds cheap compared to this
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Scott
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

janrhansen wrote:
I have a Kronos 2 73, wich was a long needed upgrade for my lower board covering Piano/Brass/strings/synth etc. I purchased a Crumar Mojo61 a couple years ago, short after it came out, and I am only using the cx-3 engine for a few special patches where I really need the organ sound combined in a way I just can't do with the Mojo via midi, and where the sound of the organ doesn't matter a whole lot. All other organ is played on the Mojo.

You can also get the Mojo organ sound on your Kronos by adding a Gemini module or a laptop/tablet (Windows)... useful if you want better organ but don't want to carry another keyboard (especially if you might already be carrying more than one)

BTW, in case no one's noticed, this is a bit of a zombie thread.

janrhansen wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
Has anyone tried a virtual Hammond B-3X from IK Multimedia

It sounds very nice, and the leslie sim (released earlier and available seperate) is hands down the best sim you can get. Sounds absolutely amazing. imo even the very popular Ventilator sounds cheap compared to this
Is the overdrive effect as good as the Vent's?
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popmann
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poseidon wrote:
Has anyone tried a virtual Hammond B-3X from IK Multimedia. They claim is been created in close collaboration with both the Hammond Organ Company, and Suzuki Musical Instruments.

Some links:

1. https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/hammondb3x/
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfOBxJQrjBo


I did. It's nice enough. It's better than the Cx3, but that's not saying a lot...

I've never tried a Ventilator hooked up to the Cx3, but I WILL point out, as an organist that the Leslie makes WAY more difference in the sound/realism than the organ model/sample. I've heard some objectively lacking old PCM organ boards played through old tube Leslies that I'd neve know--and I'm there in the room AND an organist. So, YMMV.

But, right now, there are three to consider in software:

-Acousticsamples B5
-Hammond/IK B3x
-LogicProX's Vintage Organ

That's it. All three are better than the Cx3 in the Kronos. If we assume "better"="more like the actual organ sitting in the same room here". The AcousticSamples is the only one I'd want to leave on a recording. The Logic organ was made by expert on the subject Dave Amels for Apple's version 10--it's unrelated to the old eMagic EVB3--and Dave did a great job. To ME--the LPX Organ and the new IK are interchangeable. The LPX orgna uses less CPU by a LITTLE...the new one runs stand alone and in hosts that aren't Logic.

The Acoustic Samples uses a weird hodge podge of techniques--it's layered samples of each drawbar/element-but you CAN move them 100% in real time like you need to...so you have to have a nice machine--and I DON'T mean CPU--whole system to be able to slur up and down like I would normally play. They feed the mixed samples into a model of Leslie that IMO, is pretty spot on. The two modeled systems are modeled start to finish--so, they play a little smoother, and use simple CPU resources only...

Obviously YMMV. I'm picky enough that there's a vintage C3/122 here. Just for perspective. I think some people get turned off by some of Apple's presets for the LPX Organ....YMMV--I don't really use a preset. I have MIDI drawbars...and tweak the Leslie like I'd mic mine...I saved that as default and have NO clue what their presets are like.

Anyway-I'm quite sure that any of these will do a solid emulation for most people's use cases. I personally was super surprised that the one using samples was so much nicer. It's pretty established thought that it's best to model a drawbar organ, but then--they DID sample every element separately...at organ output (rather than the leslie) and use a modelled Leslie...so....

My main complaint functionally with the new IK is that you can't make the Leslie Speed latch for CC1. I'm so used to that in the other two (and maybe the CX3?) --I just flip the joystick up.down and it changes speed, which is basically where the half moon switch IS on an organ, so...they require a "normal" CC1 for the speed, so I have to use the fader I have assigned to CC1 on the Kronos--above the keyboard...ergonomically less than ideal.

I will also give a shout out that the new IK is the most flexible to create "any" organ tone from records--due to having a whole Marshall guitar amp and various pedal effects in between-so, if someone wants say what people call "rock organ" --which means super saturated, that's not going to happen with the Acoustic Samples leslie...or frankly ANY Leslie model ALAONE...those are mods. There' a tube screamer and ability to EQ the organ IN BETWEEN the organ and Leslie that allow you to dial in those "heavy rock organ" tones.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

popmann wrote:
But, right now, there are three to consider in software:

-Acousticsamples B5
-Hammond/IK B3x
-LogicProX's Vintage Organ

Have you tried GG's Blue3? I heard someone using it at a show and thought it was great. There's a free demo.
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