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chini
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:44 am    Post subject: Kronos to become a classic? Reply with quote

chini wrote:

ON TOPIC:… ... I too believe Korg might well be about to introduce some concepts of using the workstation keyboard pushing it way beyond our current perception of it.!


..maybe not this time round!… but inevitably such innovation will appear !

As someone else pointed out: Korg's current workstation flagship is amply functional and inspiring for even the most demanding people. Technology always leaps to tempt us into new ways of being creative but sometimes musical instruments become classics that remain in use at the artists hands for a lifetime - perhaps the Kronos is destined to become one such instrument!
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:39 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos to become a classic? Reply with quote

chini wrote:
chini wrote:

ON TOPIC:… ... I too believe Korg might well be about to introduce some concepts of using the workstation keyboard pushing it way beyond our current perception of it.!


..maybe not this time round!… but inevitably such innovation will appear !

As someone else pointed out: Korg's current workstation flagship is amply functional and inspiring for even the most demanding people. Technology always leaps to tempt us into new ways of being creative but sometimes musical instruments become classics that remain in use at the artists hands for a lifetime - perhaps the Kronos is destined to become one such instrument!


I completely agree. we are somewhat future proof with the annual OS upgrades.
Plus the growing sample libs from 3rd parties.

I am not as fascinated by the latest processor speed just because its the fastest today. Or having it immediately implemented. Plus I am not the perfectionist on gear chasing things that are not likely to happen.
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synthguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos to become a classic? Reply with quote

chini wrote:
As someone else pointed out: Korg's current workstation flagship is amply functional and inspiring for even the most demanding people.

I was definitely one of those people. The Kronos could stand a successor not long from now, but it could use a facelift to keep it in the mind's eye of the invariably fickle and short memoried public. But after pouring over it again, I'm thinking ir doesn't need anything! It really is a super keyboard workstation. A few things I would add to a Kronos III:

  • Larger solid state drive, 80 - 120GB
  • More ram to hold more samples, like at least 16GB
  • More real time controllers, like at least ten sliders, knobs and buttons for proper organ, synthesizer and effects control, though I'd love to see something like the panel of the System-8, as well as a big long ribbon along the front like the Kurzweil Super ribbon, and breath controller input (whew!)
  • More KARMA functionality, KARMA 4
  • Additional virtual instruments (modeled Clavinet, Wavestation EX?, more physical models)
  • An additional truly modular VA like the Arturia Origin, with models of oscillators and filters, and a few modules reminiscent of Moog Modular and Eurorack units, like the Bode Ring Modulator and Frequency Shifter, as well as function modules a la Nord Modular and Kurzweil
  • Work on the O Verb to bring it to the level of a quality rack unit or expensive plugin, and add a few more effects, as well as a larger virtual rack
  • Enlarge the sample library, and buy out some of the best sample and programming libraries in the KORG Store and include them in the unit free
  • Ask some additional programming wizards like our own Stephen Kay, Eric Persing and the more creative musicians on the planet to make patches for it
  • And whatever else anyone can come up with

Whew! That should about do it for the next six or seven years. Wink
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos to become a classic? Reply with quote

synthguy wrote:
chini wrote:
As someone else pointed out: Korg's current workstation flagship is amply functional and inspiring for even the most demanding people.

I was definitely one of those people. The Kronos could stand a successor not long from now, but it could use a facelift to keep it in the mind's eye of the invariably fickle and short memoried public. But after pouring over it again, I'm thinking ir doesn't need anything! It really is a super keyboard workstation. A few things I would add to a Kronos III:

  • Larger solid state drive, 80 - 120GB
  • More ram to hold more samples, like at least 16GB
  • More real time controllers, like at least ten sliders, knobs and buttons for proper organ, synthesizer and effects control, though I'd love to see something like the panel of the System-8, as well as a big long ribbon along the front like the Kurzweil Super ribbon, and breath controller input (whew!)
  • More KARMA functionality, KARMA 4
  • Additional virtual instruments (modeled Clavinet, Wavestation EX?, more physical models)
  • An additional truly modular VA like the Arturia Origin, with models of oscillators and filters, and a few modules reminiscent of Moog Modular and Eurorack units, like the Bode Ring Modulator and Frequency Shifter, as well as function modules a la Nord Modular and Kurzweil
  • Work on the O Verb to bring it to the level of a quality rack unit or expensive plugin, and add a few more effects, as well as a larger virtual rack
  • Enlarge the sample library, and buy out some of the best sample and programming libraries in the KORG Store and include them in the unit free
  • Ask some additional programming wizards like our own Stephen Kay, Eric Persing and the more creative musicians on the planet to make patches for it
  • And whatever else anyone can come up with

Whew! That should about do it for the next six or seven years. Wink



They need to make the big step where it comes to hardware... 64 bit quadcore I7 with 64 bit OS, preferably 32 GB of memmory support...

Also Korg has a lot to offer, where it comes to new engines.. because they allready designed a huge amount of them for the Ipad.. personally i still hope to see a MOSS engine added to...

Also a bigger (wider) touchscreen would work very well, like 12" full HD...

Also they need to move the sequencer forward to the 21st century, really watch what Ableton and Bitwig are doing... also make this sequencer accessible at the same time as the Combis.. so you can have an independant sequence with your keyboard sounds..

Indisagree with more real time controllers, they just need to make the current controllers more accesible for different things.. also need to add leds showing their vallue..and encoders 8 pieces..

But they need to keep the surface of the board cleam and not crowded like a Nord Stage.. that would not work for a workstation.... i love how the 4 rows of 8 buttons on the Montage work for accesing different things..

Also the bank structure for your sounds is kind of limmiting, because there will allways be a max number of sounds/performances, i would like to see a more browsable database, like on NI komplete and Akai VIP, where you can browse all the sounds based on keywords.. and then use the bank system only for favorites and easy access..
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chini
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Kronos to become a classic? Reply with quote

synthguy wrote:
chini wrote:
As someone else pointed out: Korg's current workstation flagship is amply functional and inspiring for even the most demanding people.

I was definitely one of those people. The Kronos could stand a successor not long from now, but it could use a facelift to keep it in the mind's eye of the invariably fickle and short memoried public. But after pouring over it again, I'm thinking ir doesn't need anything! It really is a super keyboard workstation. A few things I would add to a Kronos III:
[list]
[*]Larger solid state drive, 80 - 120GB
[*]More ram to hold more samples, like at least 16GB...


Pretty much all the improvements here are software based and I'm sure sound wise the Kronos will always be supported. As far as controllers are concerned I think the ones it has are good… The best design of a ribbon is on my Andromeda where one can hit a hold switch that makes the ribbon stick at the point wherever you touch it - this I agree should become a standard controller on all keyboards for the playing musician. Larger RAM memory/SSD size and general added functionality, particularly anything that brings toil on polyphony, inevitably pushes the need for a faster processor. I remember when OS 3 brought with it that timbre meter display function: if switched on it would hinder the flow of certain things in the K: this is an example of where added functionality compromises current chip ability which leads inevitably to a new flagship model !… but like you synthguy, I am more than satisfied with the Kronos… certainly when they do finally replace her I would not jump unless all my 5 years worth of intense programming could be imported into the new model!

For me Korg do seem to be resolving my own wish list slowly with every OS update they release: the latest 3.1 has finally put to bed the digital popping that was occurring through the audio inputs and I can now route my DAW virtual instruments from Ableton Live via SPDIF directly into the K which makes blending the 2 sound sources much simpler via the audio input window in each patch. They also fixed some bugs in this audio input window that I had also informed them about early in 2016.

Concerning master keyboard functionality and general housekeeping of sound routing the Kronos has always been excellently designed. Out of curiosity I will take a look at the new Roland RD-2000 manual once they have it available just to see how well Roland have implemented the master controller functions. I am curious to see if they have implemented patch changing in the same way as is on my A-50…

Some of the few things I wish the Kronos did... The one reason I still use an A-50 to patch change the Kronos and the rest of my rig is because if there is one function I sorely miss having in the Kronos it is the ability the A-50 has to release a patch change only after all keys and sustain pedal have been released. I would have purchased a second K (61 key) ages ago if Korg had designed its external midi patch changing message to work this way! I have never understood how players can patch change with good timing when the the patch change cuts off the previous sound immediately you hit the button! It is so much easier and more natural to hit the button while holding the sustain pedal then release the sustain pedal to bring in the next sound set in the natural passage of a songs performance. SST is a wonderful thing in the Kronos itself but the same patch change in Setlist mode sends out immediately to external midi. With the A-50 while keeping my foot on the sustain pedal at the end of a musical passage I can hit the A-50 patch change (via a pedal) but that patch change only gets sent out the moment I take my foot off the sustain pedal or/plus any keys I happen top be holding down to change the Kronos patch in its Set List window and the rest of my rig. The Kronos in turn is sending out patch changes via some of its timbre slots externally to various synths/vocal fx units throughout the rest of my rig but it is the A-50 that commands the initial Set List patch change in the Kronos. I do of course also use the 3 remaining midi channel zones on the A-50 (A-50 is 4 midi channel capable) to do other things as well but I'd love to have the full 16 zones a second K could give me! But alas! Korg don't look like ever implementing this function.

Silly omission on the Kronos: no separate filter for CC7 volume level. Instead this is currently under "all other" controllers in the midi filter page. Volume should always be a separately filterable function.
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Bertotti
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm easy for the most part, Kronos evolution as I see it will be like follows:
1) Korg releases Kronos as we know it as a AU/VST3 plugin. 64bit limited in memory or space only by our system.
2) Existing Kronos get an OS update to use it while connected to a computer, perfect integration so we would not even see the computer or feel it there.
3) an upgrade kit to our Kronos guts, which could go one of two ways,
Path A nothing changes but kits will be in place to keep it going should something obsolete breaks.
Path B would update the CPU and memory to the most current high performance specs and be a 64 bit standalone unit like it is now but not needing the computer to run the Kronos AU/VST3.


Just a thought but as an AU/VST3 the Grandstage could also be a controller.

Hey like I always say, I can dream! 😎😜
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos to become a classic? Reply with quote

chini wrote:
[q

Concerning master keyboard functionality and general housekeeping of sound routing the Kronos has always been excellently designed. Out of curiosity I will take a look at the new Roland RD-2000 manual once they have it available just to see how well Roland have implemented the master controller functions. I am curious to see if they have implemented patch changing in the same way as is on my A-50…

Some of the few things I wish the Kronos did... The one reason I still use an A-50 to patch change the Kronos and the rest of my rig is because if there is one function I sorely miss having in the Kronos it is the ability the A-50 has to release a patch change only after all keys and sustain pedal have been released. I would have purchased a second K (61 key) ages ago if Korg had designed its external midi patch changing message to work this way! I have never understood how players can patch change with good timing when the the patch change cuts off the previous sound immediately you hit the button! It is so much easier and more natural to hit the button while holding the sustain pedal then release the sustain pedal to bring in the next sound set in the natural passage of a songs performance. SST is a wonderful thing in the Kronos itself but the same patch change in Setlist mode sends out immediately to external midi. With the A-50 while keeping my foot on the sustain pedal at the end of a musical passage I can hit the A-50 patch change (via a pedal) but that patch change only gets sent out the moment I take my foot off the sustain pedal or/plus any keys I happen top be holding down to change the Kronos patch in its Set List window and the rest of my rig. The Kronos in turn is sending out patch changes via some of its timbre slots externally to various synths/vocal fx units throughout the rest of my rig but it is the A-50 that commands the initial Set List patch change in the Kronos. I do of course also use the 3 remaining midi channel zones on the A-50 (A-50 is 4 midi channel capable) to do other things as well but I'd love to have the full 16 zones a second K could give me! But alas! Korg don't look like ever implementing this function.

.


hey chini. Had the A50 and ( over the years) 3 different RD stage pianos.

I am not 100% sure, but I think they handle patch changes differently, or it looks different.

The Rd stage pianos are excellent master keyboards/controllers. They are not cheap, of course.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like the star of the show is an instrument presented to us at Musikmesse 2016 but now finally available for playing at the NAMM floor

http://keyszone.boards.net/thread/45/keyszone-star-namm-behringer-deepmind
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synthguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the DeepMind 12 is quite the vunnderkint for a lot of people, but if you look at it closely, the most amazing things about it are the effects and the price. Well, and the discrete circuitry in the audio path. But I'd rather have one of the Dave Smith offerings myself, particularly the OB-6.

I should have probably saved my post for this morning, rather than thinking out loud at 2:30am after a soiree with friends. Might have been much better.

The Kronos should have the best processors available within a certain budget, but the computer based guys are a problem in that they need high performance cooling solutions. Which unless you spend some money on it will tend to be noisy, and people already complain about the quiet whir in the Kronos. They need something fast, running 2 - 3ghz, but under load remain pretty cool.

The eight knobs, sliders and buttons on the Kronos are functional, until you want to manipulate the organ model. You have to have at least nine sliders to go with the nine drawbars on most organs, and close together. Between VA synths, performance and sequencer mixing, I'd prefer to have twelve of each control, and definitely an assignable mode.

I was going to mention the sequencer, then it completely slipped my mind. It's been a point of contention for quite a few people here, and it always seems to revolve around having a piano roll. Honestly, the best sequencer for me is in the old Roland XP-80. With its event list, you can go through and poke in data with the keyboard, like key number and velocity as you scroll through it, which is amazingly cool. You can do this on the KORGs but you have to stop on each one and hold Enter, I believe, which is clunky and slow. If you want to build up velocities in a lead, just scroll through the event list and tap keys slightly harder each time. I did this very thing once in a track and it was too hip for words.

A larger touch screen would be great, but it has to fit somewhere. A deeper chassis would work and add space for heat dissipation, but each bit of size adds weight. You could bulge the chassis around it, but that would look strange unless it's done right.

One thing I wish they would drop is that 73 note six octave keybed in favor of a more traditional 76 note, and have polypressure on all three of them please. And definitely, that big ribbon.

Patch selection is another design choice that doesn't please everyone. Though the one Kronos uses now is workable and familiar, I prefer the Yamaha approach.

DAW VST implementation is definitely something to consider for an OS feature. That would make a lot of people happy.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthguy wrote:
The eight knobs, sliders and buttons on the Kronos are functional, until you want to manipulate the organ model. You have to have at least nine sliders to go with the nine drawbars on most organs, and close together. Between VA synths, performance and sequencer mixing, I'd prefer to have twelve of each control, and definitely an assignable mode.

When in Tone Adjust mode the Master slider functions as the ninth drawbar.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthguy wrote:


The Kronos should have the best processors available within a certain budget, but the computer based guys are a problem in that they need high performance cooling solutions. Which unless you spend some money on it will tend to be noisy, and people already complain about the quiet whir in the Kronos. They need something fast, running 2 - 3ghz, but under load remain pretty cool.



Microsoft made huge steps in processor efficiency in recent years, so cooling is much less an issue...... if you use heatpipes and make a heatspreader of the bottomplate of the keyboard, you will not need any active fans for cooling..

Instead of improving performance in recent years most development money went into heat efficiency...


This should no longer be an issue..
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

synthguy wrote:
I was going to mention the sequencer, then it completely slipped my mind. It's been a point of contention for quite a few people here, and it always seems to revolve around having a piano roll. Honestly, the best sequencer for me is in the old Roland XP-80. With its event list, you can go through and poke in data with the keyboard, like key number and velocity as you scroll through it, which is amazingly cool. You can do this on the KORGs but you have to stop on each one and hold Enter, I believe, which is clunky and slow. If you want to build up velocities in a lead, just scroll through the event list and tap keys slightly harder each time. I did this very thing once in a track and it was too hip for words.


The point of a piano roll is quick, convenient, and precise editing of events. It's not the only conceivable way of achieving this goal, but it is a well-regarded one.

It's rather vexing that the Kronos doesn't have one, partly because the Krome does (and it's actually not a bad implementation, if not perfect). Krome has step entry, Krome has individual and bulk event editing, as well as realtime recording the same way that Kronos and Kross do. The only thing that Krome does not have is the audio side, which is one reason that I like to compose on the Krome, then take the MIDI file over to the Kross for re-instrumentation and rendering (I don't do this every time, but it works well).

This is one thing that the new MPC Live and X supposedly do well; they specifically ease composition, rather than just live performance.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole system is sick and we are all in it.

Manufacturers are forced to produce newer and newer products every year. They fear the competition. Users are forced to buy newer and newer products every year. Ads try to convince them but it’s more and more difficult. The words are worn out.

This circulation is accelerating. Manufacturers are teasing in advance and only announcing (= not releasing) the new products. Users are immediately criticizing these products on the screen before trying them out.

Isn’t it ridiculous?

While all instruments are beautiful and welcome, in reality we don’t need a new instrument every year. We just need high quality products (well designed, without bugs, made of good material) - let’s say, every 5 years.

Because another problem is: musicians don’t have time to learn and use the features of the instruments on high level = to make high-level music. The internet is full of “show your studio”, “this is my new gear” etc. topics. But what about music? Is it getting any better because of this acceleration, this vicious circle?

We all know the answer.

I think, it would be better to calm down. Eventually the market will saturate. Customers will get bored sooner or later (too many instruments, not enough money). Then manufacturers will slow down the production, will have more time for development, people will save more money - and then a new “game changer” might appear.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akos Janca wrote:
The whole system is sick and we are all in it.

Manufacturers are forced to produce newer and newer products every year. They fear the competition. Users are forced to buy newer and newer products every year. Ads try to convince them but it’s more and more difficult. The words are worn out.

This circulation is accelerating. Manufacturers are teasing in advance and only announcing (= not releasing) the new products. Users are immediately criticizing these products on the screen before trying them out.

Isn’t it ridiculous?

While all instruments are beautiful and welcome, in reality we don’t need a new instrument every year. We just need high quality products (well designed, without bugs, made of good material) - let’s say, every 5 years.

Because another problem is: musicians don’t have time to learn and use the features of the instruments on high level = to make high-level music. The internet is full of “show your studio”, “this is my new gear” etc. topics. But what about music? Is it getting any better because of this acceleration, this vicious circle?

We all know the answer.

I think, it would be better to calm down. Eventually the market will saturate. Customers will get bored sooner or later (too many instruments, not enough money). Then manufacturers will slow down the production, will have more time for development, people will save more money - and then a new “game changer” might appear.


lots of truth in what you are saying. However, I have never felt forced or obsessed to buy anything. My last keyboard purchase was the Kronos + 5 yrs ago.

all those ads, blah, blah. Yes they can be enticing but they are just ads. A piece of information and a photo, nothing more. And we have numerous gear type forums that are determined to fact check a new product.

I have stated this before- we live in the best of times. Several platforms to choose from, interesting products, prices for every budget. Good research of new products.

I am not concerned about tomorrows products. It will take care of itself.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Kronos to become a classic? Reply with quote

chini wrote:
synthguy wrote:
chini wrote:
As someone else pointed out: Korg's current workstation flagship is amply functional and inspiring for even the most demanding people.

I was definitely one of those people. The Kronos could stand a successor not long from now, but it could use a facelift to keep it in the mind's eye of the invariably fickle and short memoried public. But after pouring over it again, I'm thinking ir doesn't need anything! It really is a super keyboard workstation. A few things I would add to a Kronos III:
[list]
[*]Larger solid state drive, 80 - 120GB
[*]More ram to hold more samples, like at least 16GB...


Pretty much all the improvements here are software based and I'm sure sound wise the Kronos will always be supported. As far as controllers are concerned I think the ones it has are good… The best design of a ribbon is on my Andromeda where one can hit a hold switch that makes the ribbon stick at the point wherever you touch it - this I agree should become a standard controller on all keyboards for the playing musician. Larger RAM memory/SSD size and general added functionality, particularly anything that brings toil on polyphony, inevitably pushes the need for a faster processor. I remember when OS 3 brought with it that timbre meter display function: if switched on it would hinder the flow of certain things in the K: this is an example of where added functionality compromises current chip ability which leads inevitably to a new flagship model !… but like you synthguy, I am more than satisfied with the Kronos… certainly when they do finally replace her I would not jump unless all my 5 years worth of intense programming could be imported into the new model!

For me Korg do seem to be resolving my own wish list slowly with every OS update they release: the latest 3.1 has finally put to bed the digital popping that was occurring through the audio inputs and I can now route my DAW virtual instruments from Ableton Live via SPDIF directly into the K which makes blending the 2 sound sources much simpler via the audio input window in each patch. They also fixed some bugs in this audio input window that I had also informed them about early in 2016.

Concerning master keyboard functionality and general housekeeping of sound routing the Kronos has always been excellently designed. Out of curiosity I will take a look at the new Roland RD-2000 manual once they have it available just to see how well Roland have implemented the master controller functions. I am curious to see if they have implemented patch changing in the same way as is on my A-50…

Some of the few things I wish the Kronos did... The one reason I still use an A-50 to patch change the Kronos and the rest of my rig is because if there is one function I sorely miss having in the Kronos it is the ability the A-50 has to release a patch change only after all keys and sustain pedal have been released. I would have purchased a second K (61 key) ages ago if Korg had designed its external midi patch changing message to work this way! I have never understood how players can patch change with good timing when the the patch change cuts off the previous sound immediately you hit the button! It is so much easier and more natural to hit the button while holding the sustain pedal then release the sustain pedal to bring in the next sound set in the natural passage of a songs performance. SST is a wonderful thing in the Kronos itself but the same patch change in Setlist mode sends out immediately to external midi. With the A-50 while keeping my foot on the sustain pedal at the end of a musical passage I can hit the A-50 patch change (via a pedal) but that patch change only gets sent out the moment I take my foot off the sustain pedal or/plus any keys I happen top be holding down to change the Kronos patch in its Set List window and the rest of my rig. The Kronos in turn is sending out patch changes via some of its timbre slots externally to various synths/vocal fx units throughout the rest of my rig but it is the A-50 that commands the initial Set List patch change in the Kronos. I do of course also use the 3 remaining midi channel zones on the A-50 (A-50 is 4 midi channel capable) to do other things as well but I'd love to have the full 16 zones a second K could give me! But alas! Korg don't look like ever implementing this function.

Silly omission on the Kronos: no separate filter for CC7 volume level. Instead this is currently under "all other" controllers in the midi filter page. Volume should always be a separately filterable function.


Concerning patch change, I use Karma for smooth sound patch change, achieving one of your wish list items. In fact, I rarely use SST in setlist, I just find it much easier to use the scene buttons to achieve SST than the touch screen YMMV.
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