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RonF
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Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:53 pm Post subject: Kronos owners: would you buy a Trinity? |
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Topic speaks for itself. I'm interested in a Trinity V3 keyboard w HDD option.
Why? Sequencing workflow!!! I've just read a lot of folks say the Trinity sequencer workflow was truly great, could be the center of a studio. Also that the Trinity sounds great as a synth, and has great effects. I never had the opportunity to own one back in the day.
I love Kronos, but its sequencer workflow leaves me wanting....and I for one DIG using hardware sequencing. In particular, the fact that Kronos has no Cue/Song mode...it really hampers my workflow for making complete compositions. Of course I understand the Kronos has an 16 track HDD recorder, vs the Trinity with 4 track...but that's probably ok for me.
So...I've been looking around. There's the M3 sequencer, which is the last to have the Cue mode (not taking into account the Krome, but thats SO redundant and inferior to the Kronos, and I can get a Trinity for less money). In reviewing this....it seems the Trinity has a great reputation for sequencing and composition, offers a different sound palette which would perhaps be an enhancement, and its relatively inexpensive.
I'm thinking the two might make a great combo. I could even (with the HDD option installed on the Trinity) go digital from the T directly into the K, and route additional effects or HDD audio tracks there.
Thoughts? Anything else I perhaps should be considering?
PS: I wish there was a truly great Pattern based (read: cue mode) Korg-like sequencer app for iPad. Then the Kronos would be perfection.
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http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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you have a lot of gear.
I am a minimalist, like a simple approach. Thus, no, I have no interest in an old piece of gear like that
I have owned the TR-Rack, Triton and Extreme inn the past.
The SEQ in the Kronos rocks. I love it
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Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams 
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amit
Approved Merchant
Joined: 13 Jul 2015
Posts: 825
Location: New Delhi, India
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry don't know about the cue mode, but have you tried modstep for ipad?
it's very powerful pattern based and midi triggerable patterns (like ableton live for midi).
However if you want to program patterns and also arrange them then there is another app called "midi patterns" that has seq mode but not midi triggerable.
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DX7-MOD-7 Patches | Korg Related Content
iPad Pro 12.9,MBP
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | you have a lot of gear.
I am a minimalist, like a simple approach. Thus, no, I have no interest in an old piece of gear like that
I have owned the TR-Rack, Triton and Extreme inn the past.
The SEQ in the Kronos rocks. I love it |
True. I do gear!
How do you get around the lack of patterns in composition in Kronos SEQ? I find it cumbersome. Yes, its a good sequencer, but it lacks that ability to compose motif's, and assemble them into song, all on board one machine.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| amit wrote: | Sorry don't know about the cue mode, but have you tried modstep for ipad?
it's very powerful pattern based and midi triggerable patterns (like ableton live for midi).
However if you want to program patterns and also arrange them then there is another app called "midi patterns" that has seq mode but not midi triggerable. |
I have modstep. I find it good, but not exactly intuitive UI. After years of sequencing on Korg boxes, I like the Korg sequencing workflow. Its just that Oasys/Kronos dropped the all important Cue mode! At least it was important to me and my workflow.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| RonF wrote: | | GregC wrote: | you have a lot of gear.
I am a minimalist, like a simple approach. Thus, no, I have no interest in an old piece of gear like that
I have owned the TR-Rack, Triton and Extreme inn the past.
The SEQ in the Kronos rocks. I love it |
True. I do gear!
How do you get around the lack of patterns in composition in Kronos SEQ? I find it cumbersome. Yes, its a good sequencer, but it lacks that ability to compose motif's, and assemble them into song, all on board one machine. |
lack of patterns ?
I roll my own parts
for example I use 16 midi programs on Signed Sealed Delivered. I take the time to learn/record each part
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Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | GregC wrote: | you have a lot of gear.
I am a minimalist, like a simple approach. Thus, no, I have no interest in an old piece of gear like that
I have owned the TR-Rack, Triton and Extreme inn the past.
The SEQ in the Kronos rocks. I love it |
True. I do gear!
How do you get around the lack of patterns in composition in Kronos SEQ? I find it cumbersome. Yes, its a good sequencer, but it lacks that ability to compose motif's, and assemble them into song, all on board one machine. |
lack of patterns ?
I roll my own parts
for example I use 16 midi programs on Signed Sealed Delivered. I take the time to learn/record each part |
Think you're missing my point. Yes, of course I do the same as you suggest.
On the M3, for example, you can have 16 midi programs and learn/record each part of "a section" of a song. Then do that again in another section of a song, using DIFFERENT programs/effects. And then assemble those sections (arrange patterns) into a full composition. This way, you're getting to use different programs and effects, very easily, through the arrangement of your song. In Kronos, you have nothing but a 16 track linear midi sequencer. To achieve the same level of arrangement requires program change messages, bouncing to audio tracks, and your effects allocation is clearly more limited over the length of the song. Does that make more sense? It can all be done on the Kronos. But the workflow is just more laborious.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| RonF wrote: | | GregC wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | GregC wrote: | you have a lot of gear.
I am a minimalist, like a simple approach. Thus, no, I have no interest in an old piece of gear like that
I have owned the TR-Rack, Triton and Extreme inn the past.
The SEQ in the Kronos rocks. I love it |
True. I do gear!
How do you get around the lack of patterns in composition in Kronos SEQ? I find it cumbersome. Yes, its a good sequencer, but it lacks that ability to compose motif's, and assemble them into song, all on board one machine. |
lack of patterns ?
I roll my own parts
for example I use 16 midi programs on Signed Sealed Delivered. I take the time to learn/record each part |
Think you're missing my point. Yes, of course I do the same as you suggest.
On the M3, for example, you can have 16 midi programs and learn/record each part of "a section" of a song. Then do that again in another section of a song, using DIFFERENT programs/effects. And then assemble those sections (arrange patterns) into a full composition. This way, you're getting to use different programs and effects, very easily, through the arrangement of your song. In Kronos, you have nothing but a 16 track linear midi sequencer. To achieve the same level of arrangement requires program change messages, bouncing to audio tracks, and your effects allocation is clearly more limited over the length of the song. Does that make more sense? It can all be done on the Kronos. But the workflow is just more laborious. |
now that you have clarified.
Sure, in the 'repeated' section, esp for drums, I will overlay another drum flavor, or rolls, different cymbal, more snare. Yes, its another midi Drum Program.
I usually add other programs to distinguish the verse, such as trumpet part swells, since thats the way its recorded.
I lay out my instruments, as best as I can , in advance.
I do fuss with FX and small edits. I suppose, depending on what you want to do, it could be less tedious.
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| GregC wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | GregC wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | GregC wrote: | you have a lot of gear.
I am a minimalist, like a simple approach. Thus, no, I have no interest in an old piece of gear like that
I have owned the TR-Rack, Triton and Extreme inn the past.
The SEQ in the Kronos rocks. I love it |
True. I do gear!
How do you get around the lack of patterns in composition in Kronos SEQ? I find it cumbersome. Yes, its a good sequencer, but it lacks that ability to compose motif's, and assemble them into song, all on board one machine. |
lack of patterns ?
I roll my own parts
for example I use 16 midi programs on Signed Sealed Delivered. I take the time to learn/record each part |
Think you're missing my point. Yes, of course I do the same as you suggest.
On the M3, for example, you can have 16 midi programs and learn/record each part of "a section" of a song. Then do that again in another section of a song, using DIFFERENT programs/effects. And then assemble those sections (arrange patterns) into a full composition. This way, you're getting to use different programs and effects, very easily, through the arrangement of your song. In Kronos, you have nothing but a 16 track linear midi sequencer. To achieve the same level of arrangement requires program change messages, bouncing to audio tracks, and your effects allocation is clearly more limited over the length of the song. Does that make more sense? It can all be done on the Kronos. But the workflow is just more laborious. |
now that you have clarified.
Sure, in the 'repeated' section, esp for drums, I will overlay another drum flavor, or rolls, different cymbal, more snare. Yes, its another midi Drum Program.
I usually add other programs to distinguish the verse, such as trumpet part swells, since thats the way its recorded.
I lay out my instruments, as best as I can , in advance.
I do fuss with FX and small edits. I suppose, depending on what you want to do, it could be less tedious. |
Thanks for understanding! You and I actually work very a-like on the Kronos. I'm not knocking the Kronos. Been loving mine for 5 years and use it daily!
But....no doubt....its sequencer workflow for full arrangements is not as easy without some type of "song mode". The M3 had a much more user friendly sequencer. I'm not even referring to a piano roll or editing modes...Kronos editing is fine. But the lack of song mode really inhibits your arrangements and thus sacrifices some creativity. Sometimes you really have to stretch to get Kronos to do what you want to do as it moves from verse to chorus to break, etc. Song mode of some type has been around on workstations since the ESQ-1, going WAY back. It-is-what-it-is on the Kronos....and the Kronos is still King of workstations...but if you really want to compose complex arrangements....some other sequencing tool is almost essential. Thus my inquiry here.
The way you describe (and I do this too!), you're really capped to 16 midi programs and the effects allocation of the Kronos "as is" for your full arrangement....unless you're going to resort to bouncing to audio tracks, or using program change messages. With a "song mode" you could use potentially dozens and dozens of midi programs and effects throughout one arrangement.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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SanderXpander
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Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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If you really must have a hardware based sequencer (which for me personally is almost incomprehensible) I think the later Motifs have a much better one than the Trinity (except perhaps for audio recording). You could also use an iPad with Cubasis or something similar.
I think apart from the "missing" cue list, the Kronos sequencer is basically a massively updated Trinity sequencer and I don't think you'll gain a lot of new stuff by getting an old board like that |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | If you really must have a hardware based sequencer (which for me personally is almost incomprehensible) I think the later Motifs have a much better one than the Trinity (except perhaps for audio recording). You could also use an iPad with Cubasis or something similar.
I think apart from the "missing" cue list, the Kronos sequencer is basically a massively updated Trinity sequencer and I don't think you'll gain a lot of new stuff by getting an old board like that |
I do use a DAW (Ableton or LogicPro), so I'm not opposed to that. But there are times where creativity flows best without even turning on a computer. I've done some of my best work on hardware. The thing about a good workstation, is that you can take it out of the studio (literally or figuratively) and focus on writing/composing without distraction or overload....just focus on the music. I grew up on workstation sequencers...and find them generally quite inviting and creative. Alas....there are times where a DAW is a requirement. Having both is optimal, for me.
That "missing" cue list....is no small thing. I agree, the Kronos is a descendant of the Trinity/Triton/M3/Oasys lineage....and Kronos is the most fully realized version on that theme. But a LOT of people sing the praises of the Trinity workflow. Its something that I think may have degraded a bit from generation to generation of Korg workstations.
As for Yamaha...I don't have any experience with those sequencers, so I'll have to look into it. Cubasis on iPad is not great for me, I've tried it. I really do love Korg sequencers. Its a catch-22.
Thanks so much for your feedback!
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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jeremykeys
Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 3092
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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I can only speak for myself here but I really like the Kronos Sequencer. It took a while to figure it all out but after some effort it all came together for me.
I don't use it much anymore though. I have SSD issues. I've had them for quite some time and finally just said "the heck with it!"
Now I use Cubase 7.5.4. I love it. It just works for me. I generally don't use patterns except with the Kronos drum track and when I do, I just have it play into Cubase. I always set my BPM in Cubase to be the same as the drum track in my Kronos.
Sorry but I don't know anything at all about the Trinity sequencer. I have an old Triton Pro X but I never used the sequencer in it.
Good luck in your search though!
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If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats! |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| jeremykeys wrote: | I can only speak for myself here but I really like the Kronos Sequencer. It took a while to figure it all out but after some effort it all came together for me.
I don't use it much anymore though. I have SSD issues. I've had them for quite some time and finally just said "the heck with it!"
Now I use Cubase 7.5.4. I love it. It just works for me. I generally don't use patterns except with the Kronos drum track and when I do, I just have it play into Cubase. I always set my BPM in Cubase to be the same as the drum track in my Kronos.
Sorry but I don't know anything at all about the Trinity sequencer. I have an old Triton Pro X but I never used the sequencer in it.
Good luck in your search though! |
Thanks much for your feedback!
Just to be clear...when I refer to "patterns", I'm not talking about a drum pattern, or repeating loop through a song. In fact, I imagine that you probably (yes, I'm assuming) DO use "patterns" when you compose in Cubase.
By "pattern"...I'm referring to a complete 16 track/channel (with full effects) section of an arrangement. Like a verse using one set of programs and effects, and a chorus using another set of programs and effects...each one is a separate "pattern" which then gets arranged in a "cue list".
On the M3, each "pattern" is called a "song". With the Cue List you can name each "song", for example, "verse 1", "verse 2", "breakdown 1", "chorus".....and then you can arrange the order of them, and how many times they will play. Its sort of like how NI Maschine works, for a modern example. Or like an Ensoniq ESQ-1 works, for a ubiquitous hardware example. You can get really quite creative with these "patterns" in the cue list....as each segment can have its own unique settings, programs, effects, tempo, length, etc. So a "song" on the Kronos is just ONE 16 track/channel linear canvas. On the M3 you could have dozens of the same....and then arrange these any way you want to compose your "song".
Kronos sequencer is great for what it is...but its seriously handicapped, creatively, without any arrangement facilities, IMHO.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:17 am Post subject: |
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I think you have to put the praise of the Trinity sequencer into context. It was really good compared to what was out there at the time. The Kronos sequencer is directly descended from it and upgraded in many aspects, with the exception of the cue list thing, which I can imagine is important to you. By the way sorry for not saying so directly but I haven't personally used the Trinity sequencer though I used the Triton series sequencer a lot at one time. I just find the basic workflow between Triton and Kronos to be nearly identical so I'm not sure what magic you're looking for other than a cue list.
If you can do without audio recording (or use in-track sampling), the M3 adds a piano roll, chord pads and a kaoss pad to the mix. That I would call an upgrade. |
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| RonF wrote: |
The way you describe (and I do this too!), you're really capped to 16 midi programs and the effects allocation of the Kronos "as is" for your full arrangement....unless you're going to resort to bouncing to audio tracks, or using program change messages. With a "song mode" you could use potentially dozens and dozens of midi programs and effects throughout one arrangement. |
I don't know if this helps, but you certainly can change programs mid-track, as well as effects allocations mid-song too. Pretty much any parameter you can change on the Kronos whilst you're recording can be recorded into the sequencer.
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
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