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Kronos 2 Berlin Grand
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benny ray
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject: Kronos 2 Berlin Grand Reply with quote

I have tried many ways to like the Berlin Grand but cannot do anything that significantly helps the sounds. For me its the tone i assume that doesn't connect with my ear. Was wondering if anyone had deleted the Berlin Grand to make more room for other sounds. I think the piano is ok but for the large GB sample it falls short on sound to my ears. Just curious what other players think of the Berlin Grand and we know everyone has different ears.
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ando727
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potentially good, but there are some really odd notes. The F# G and G# above middle C sound terrible. Fast decay and dead tone. If these notes were fixed, I'd use the Berlin grand, but because of these 3 notes, I don't use it at all. I can't understand how this got through Korg's quality control. Such a waste when they've made such a big sample set. Wish Korg would offer a fix for these bad notes.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only played it briefly in the store but really didn't like the mid range especially.
Others have commented it does well in a loud band context though.
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PCFREE
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the sound very much but am very disappointed with the short decay on the samples. For me, the different workarounds discussed here at length, are unsatisfactory for my needs
I'm considering unloading the samples
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dfahrner
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People posting here seem dislike the Berlin Grand, and I usually find myself using the German Grand instead (my own tweaked versions, particularly the Ferrante), but every time I go back to the Berlin, I think that it sounds and plays more like a "real" piano...to me, the KRONOS German and Japanese Grands are what I've come to expect a piano to sound like after using sampled pianos for so long; maybe Korg tried for a little more "realism" (whatever that means, maybe those few odd-sounding notes?) with the Berlin...

I had occasion to play a show recently where I was backing several jazz singers, and had to use the piano they had there at the theater: a well-maintained Steinway grand...I was a little concerned, there was no rehearsal and I hadn't played a real piano in several years, but about 5 seconds into the first song, I realized there wasn't going to be any problem at all...

df
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benny ray
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PCFREE wrote:
I like the sound very much but am very disappointed with the short decay on the samples. For me, the different workarounds discussed here at length, are unsatisfactory for my needs
I'm considering unloading the samples


Yea i am thinking about unloading the Berlin Grand cause i never use it. Gosh a large sample you would think the tone would be better. On my Nord the Silver Grand is only 1 GB and it sounds wonderful but there are other factors other than the size of the sample.
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ahutnick
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I never use the Berlin Grand. The lower range sounds pretty good but when you get to the midrange and higher the sound to my ears chesses out. Busch's Purgatory Creek pianos are the way to go to my ears but that's just my opinion.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few Berlin program sounds that I like. With the Nanopad they sound impressive.

One of our forum friends did a PCG for the Berlin and it was excellent.

I also agree with the above comments on the bad sampled keys. It does discourage use of the Berlin
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ErnstDabest
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

benny ray wrote:

I have tried many ways to like the Berlin Grand but cannot do anything that significantly helps the sounds. For me its the tone i assume that doesn't connect with my ear. Was wondering if anyone had deleted the Berlin Grand to make more room for other sounds. I think the piano is ok but for the large GB sample it falls short on sound to my ears. Just curious what other players think of the Berlin Grand and we know everyone has different ears.


Korg was never any good a programming pianos, I have a Korg Triton so I know how lame their pianos are. I use to laugh whenever I'm watching a youtube video of either a Korg M3 or a Korg OASYS and the demo-saleguy would say, "listen to that piano how authentic it sounds" OR how fun and expressive that piano is to play.....

I would say to myself, do these guys have hearing-problems ?

There is a Triton Studio video, version 2 if my memory serve me right, where the demo-salesguy says the sample for this piano is derived from a Bosendorfer grand... I swear I'm not making this up - the piano, if I could even call it that, literally sounded like a mouse's sneeze...

Seems there is a recurring "inside joke" here that Korg likes to play on us (it's customers) by making these unrealistic claims.... The Kronos however is an improvement !!! Korg is not quite there yet, but it's a step in the right direction - I wish the pianos on my Triton sounded half-decent to what I hear coming from Kronos.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ErnstDabest wrote:
benny ray wrote:

I have tried many ways to like the Berlin Grand but cannot do anything that significantly helps the sounds. For me its the tifferent ears.


Korg was never any good a programming pianos, I have a Korg Triton so I know how lame their pianos are. I use to laugh whenever I'm watching a youtube video of either a Korg M3 or a Korg OASYS and the demo-saleguy would say, "listen to that piano how authentic it sounds" OR how fun and expressive that piano is to play.....

- I wish the pianos on my Triton sounded half-decent to what I hear coming from Kronos.


The main reason I bought the Kronos are because of the superb acoustic pianos.

Lets not re-fuss over the Triton AP's. There's another forum for the Triton
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tand
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sold my Motif XS to buy the Kronos 2 mainly because of the great pianos (German and Japanese Grand are great). Motif XS piano sucks.

Quote:
People posting here seem dislike the Berlin Grand, and I usually find myself using the German Grand instead (my own tweaked versions, particularly the Ferrante), but every time I go back to the Berlin, I think that it sounds and plays more like a "real" piano...to me, the KRONOS German and Japanese Grands are what I've come to expect a piano to sound like after using sampled pianos for so long;


Dfahrner is right. That's why, to my ears, German and Japanese fits well in a mix when playing with another folks in church.

So I just unloaded the Berlin Grand and now and I have more space. It's a very good piano, but not for my needs.

That's a great feature from Kronos that many users forget. You can unload and load anything you want. Now i have the German, Japanese and the S700 Grand which I've sampled from my old S90 ES.

Oh, and forget Triton. Kronos pianos are another subject.
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been comparing other sampled pianos with the Berlin recently, mainly because I find my attraction to it intermittent, and quite puzzling.
I think it has it's followers and dislikers due to its quite colored "woody" sound, vs the open transparent and unison style tuning of the Steinway for instance.
Its character I think, is not a shortcoming of the sampling by Korg, but the natural characteristic of the piano. An interesting set of harmonics it surely produces. You can almost smell the timber and hear the shape of the sounding case.

As far as the short string decay, this is the bit also which has confused me...and I've come to my own conclusion.....the decay in itself is not excessively short, I think the attack portion of the note is of a higher amplitude relative to the decay, if you compare it to other piano samples. This may explain why some people feel it's good at cutting through the mix when playing live. The hammer attack is very pronounced, possibly this issue is a result of Korg's processing from the original sample. I expect others to disagree, but that's my thoughts on it, anyway.

For me, it goes in and out of favour, depending what other piano samples I use, and how I feel.
Interestingly also, because of the cutting though nature of the attack portion, and its character, I tend to use it a lot as a combi with a string or synth pad, not surprisingly, this fattens up the decay portion, and I'm quite satisfied with the result. I know others blend it with other pianos, which seems to work well too.

In the end, I'm glad I have it, and I enjoy the differences between all the pianos, as it seems what one lacks, another makes up for.
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The companions I can't live without: Kronos2-88, Kawai Acoustic Grand, Kawai MP11SE, Yamaha Montage8,
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't actually have it, but you should be able to redesign the attack portion somewhat with proper compression.
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DeltaJockey
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Sander, I guess in theory that should be possible. I might check it out, though just a cursory look at it while I'm playing around doesn't show anything obvious, I can't find any separate multisamples like in HD.
The EXi's just give you preset variations of the instrument, unless I could assign a controller parameter to modify the attack amplitude or some gated compression to effect it. Needs a think Smile

It should be the same as the sgx1 pianos. So any ideas appreciated.
I know people have also talked about adjusting the sgx release time setting for it too, but this just adjusts the unsustained release time, and it doesn't go any longer than the sustained release.
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The companions I can't live without: Kronos2-88, Kawai Acoustic Grand, Kawai MP11SE, Yamaha Montage8,
Other important stuff: Kronos2-73, Integra7, Studiologic NC2X, Casio PX S3000, NI Komplete Ultimate 11, Sonuscore Elysion and Orchestra, Pianoteq, Experimenta Due.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reduce the velocity bias to make the Berlin more useful.
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