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Kevin Nolan
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Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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 Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jeremykeys wrote: |
@ Bald Eagle. Tell me what it is about the "Super Knob" that appeals to you? I'm really curious because to me I don't really get it.
No offense intended here. Except for the fact that it's a big flashing thing, I don't get what it does. |
The Superknob controls the other 8 knobs. There's no setup - it controls whatever is assigned to the other 8 knobs in the Performance. The 8 knobs can be assigned to anything in the instrument - FM operator, LFO, Effect parameter - you name it. alternatively - all 8 knobs can be set to parameters from one sound and in that instance acts similarly to the AN1x Scene Morphing (though not exactly the same).
To go further - Motion Sequencing and Arpeggiators can be controlled via the knobs, and interact with each other - and hence controlled via the Superknob.
Think of this as two layers of abstraction above the synth engines and motion sequencer. The 8 knobs provide one layer - realtime control of any parameters in the synth engines, arpeggiators and motion sequencers; and super-knob a layer above that.
Coupled to the idea that there are only performances, and no synth 'modes' like on previous workstations, and it provides for a very open ended performance system, without the burden of having to track what you do from programs to multis / combis because you are always in - Performance mode.
It's not dissimilar to Performance memories on the DX1 and DX7, or even the likes of the Brilliance fader on the CS80 which controlled the brilliance of all 4 filters (per note) on the dual channels (LPF and HPF on each channel).
Yamaha have been about this kind of over-arching performance control as long as they have been making synthesizers.
You don't have to be impressed with it, or like it - but from my experience of Yamaha synthesizers it will likely bring a lot 'to the table' of performance synthesis. As importantly (to me) it shows Yamaha have returned to synthesis mindful of their ethos and legacy, and that only bodes well for the future.
As said - not everybody loves Yamaha synths, or 'gets' them - but some of us do - and performance control is at the heart of what we find interesting about Yamaha synths in particular. Montage fits right in! |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | jeremykeys wrote: |
@ Bald Eagle. Tell me what it is about the "Super Knob" that appeals to you? I'm really curious because to me I don't really get it.
No offense intended here. Except for the fact that it's a big flashing thing, I don't get what it does. |
The Superknob controls the other 8 knobs. There's no setup - it controls whatever is assigned to the other 8 knobs in the Performance. The 8 knobs can be assigned to anything in the instrument - FM operator, LFO, Effect parameter - you name it. alternatively - all 8 knobs can be set to parameters from one sound and in that instance acts similarly to the AN1x Scene Morphing (though not exactly the same).
To go further - Motion Sequencing and Arpeggiators can be controlled via the knobs, and interact with each other - and hence controlled via the Superknob.
Think of this as two layers of abstraction above the synth engines and motion sequencer. The 8 knobs provide one layer - realtime control of any parameters in the synth engines, arpeggiators and motion sequencers; and super-knob a layer above that.
Coupled to the idea that there are only performances, and no synth 'modes' like on previous workstations, and it provides for a very open ended performance system, without the burden of having to track what you do from programs to multis / combis because you are always in - Performance mode.
It's not dissimilar to Performance memories on the DX1 and DX7, or even the likes of the Brilliance fader on the CS80 which controlled the brilliance of all 4 filters (per note) on the dual channels (LPF and HPF on each channel).
Yamaha have been about this kind of over-arching performance control as long as they have been making synthesizers.
You don't have to be impressed with it, or like it - but from my experience of Yamaha synthesizers it will likely bring a lot 'to the table' of performance synthesis. As importantly (to me) it shows Yamaha have returned to synthesis mindful of their ethos and legacy, and that only bodes well for the future.
As said - not everybody loves Yamaha synths, or 'gets' them - but some of us do - and performance control is at the heart of what we find interesting about Yamaha synths in particular. Montage fits right in! |
To bad the superknob only controlls the parameters allready assigned to the knobs...
Personally i think it would be more flexible if i could just assign any number of parameters to the superknob, or any knob for that... |
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voip
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 3769
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Bachus on the Superknob. Based on the videos of the Montage, the impression gained was that the Superknob could be assigned to any function, not just the 8 knobs, but going through the user manual I see it is only capable of controlling the functions assigned to the 8 knobs. The user manual alludes to further info on Superknob use in the reference manual, but this has yet to be published.
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spaceman3
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Yamaha kind of lost me with MONTAGE, when i saw the development video, and a guy from yamaha was saying the physical shape of MONTAGE could absorb the thoughts of the audience, and somehow make the performer play better.
When it comes to the super knob, i think its cool, but not really cutting edge.
Still, i like the MONTAGE.
It has great AWM and FM sounds.
It has a killer reverb.
It transfers its sounds to a computer in a big way.
Even though the KRONOS pretty well killed my lust for other synths.
If i had alot of money, i would buy a MONTAGE. |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: |
To bad the superknob only controlls the parameters allready assigned to the knobs...
Personally i think it would be more flexible if i could just assign any number of parameters to the superknob, or any knob for that... |
I think you are significantly under estimating what the Superknob can control, and missing the point of Montage quite significantly.
The key point isn't just what Superknob can control - it's what the 8 other knobs can control and the ease with which they can be configured. Essentially Montage is an integrated performance system. The 8 knobs provide for transparent control of any feature of the instrument from the guts of a synth engine to a motion sequence to an arpeggiator to effects.
Coupled to what Motion Control, the Envelope Follower and Arpeggiator actually bring to the picture; plus there being only Performances and no other 'Modes' means you are always in performance control and always have access to all performance features, so there will always be freedom to create performance based setups with no compromises.
Given the superlative underlying synth engines, an unprecedented 32 effects and an arpeggiator with 10,000 patterns - to say nothing about what Motion Sequences actually are - and it's a pretty significant package.
Supreknob then provides one control access sitting on top of all of that.
This is a significant sound design / performance package. As said repeatedly - fine if it's not for you - but be careful about expressing whether or not you like it as distinct to denigrating its features - it's a huge package filled with a plethora of new and powerful features - there very little "only" about Montage!
To repeat - if you don't like it that's allowed - nobody's saying it should be universally loved - but it is a mighty package that Yamaha have put out here. I'd recommend a careful read of both the brochure and the available manual. |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | Bachus wrote: |
To bad the superknob only controlls the parameters allready assigned to the knobs...
Personally i think it would be more flexible if i could just assign any number of parameters to the superknob, or any knob for that... |
I think you are significantly under estimating what the Superknob can control, and missing the point of Montage quite significantly.
The key point isn't just what Superknob can control - it's what the 8 other knobs can control and the ease with which they can be configured. Essentially Montage is an integrated performance system. The 8 knobs provide for transparent control of any feature of the instrument from the guts of a synth engine to a motion sequence to an arpeggiator to effects.
Coupled to what Motion Control, the Envelope Follower and Arpeggiator actually bring to the picture; plus there being only Performances and no other 'Modes' means you are always in performance control and always have access to all performance features, so there will always be freedom to create performance based setups with no compromises.
Given the superlative underlying synth engines, an unprecedented 32 effects and an arpeggiator with 10,000 patterns - to say nothing about what Motion Sequences actually are - and it's a pretty significant package.
Supreknob then provides one control access sitting on top of all of that.
This is a significant sound design / performance package. As said repeatedly - fine if it's not for you - but be careful about expressing whether or not you like it as distinct to denigrating its features - it's a huge package filled with a plethora of new and powerful features - there very little "only" about Montage!
To repeat - if you don't like it that's allowed - nobody's saying it should be universally loved - but it is a mighty package that Yamaha have put out here. I'd recommend a careful read of both the brochure and the available manual. |
I didnt say the superknob was not powerfull..
I said it is starnge that it can only comtroll the 8 knobs.. Wouldnt it just be better to have the superknob controll any set of parameters you want.. And then have 8 different parametesrs on the knobs that you can controll on top of that...
A good example would be the superknob switching between several different instruments and then having knob 1 controll the cutoff of asynth in the performance and knob 2 a delay parameter that arent part of the superknob set of parameters....
Controlling all from a single knob might be very powerfull, it also sounds very gimmicky.. Yes i do like the idea behind a superknoB, espescially how its programmed into every performance to do something special. But should it really allways be connected to the other 8 knobs? |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | Bachus wrote: |
To bad the superknob only controlls the parameters allready assigned to the knobs...
Personally i think it would be more flexible if i could just assign any number of parameters to the superknob, or any knob for that... |
I think you are significantly under estimating what the Superknob can control, and missing the point of Montage quite significantly.
The key point isn't just what Superknob can control - it's what the 8 other knobs can control and the ease with which they can be configured. Essentially Montage is an integrated performance system. The 8 knobs provide for transparent control of any feature of the instrument from the guts of a synth engine to a motion sequence to an arpeggiator to effects.
Coupled to what Motion Control, the Envelope Follower and Arpeggiator actually bring to the picture; plus there being only Performances and no other 'Modes' means you are always in performance control and always have access to all performance features, so there will always be freedom to create performance based setups with no compromises.
Given the superlative underlying synth engines, an unprecedented 32 effects and an arpeggiator with 10,000 patterns - to say nothing about what Motion Sequences actually are - and it's a pretty significant package.
Supreknob then provides one control access sitting on top of all of that.
This is a significant sound design / performance package. As said repeatedly - fine if it's not for you - but be careful about expressing whether or not you like it as distinct to denigrating its features - it's a huge package filled with a plethora of new and powerful features - there very little "only" about Montage!
To repeat - if you don't like it that's allowed - nobody's saying it should be universally loved - but it is a mighty package that Yamaha have put out here. I'd recommend a careful read of both the brochure and the available manual. |
I didnt say the superknob was not powerfull..
I said it is starnge that it can only comtroll the 8 knobs.. Wouldnt it just be better to have the superknob controll any set of parameters you want.. And then have 8 different parametesrs on the knobs that you can controll on top of that...
A good example would be the superknob switching between several different instruments and then having knob 1 controll the cutoff of asynth in the performance and knob 2 a delay parameter that arent part of the superknob set of parameters....
Controlling all from a single knob might be very powerfull, it also sounds very gimmicky.. Yes i do like the idea behind a superknoB, espescially how its programmed into every performance to do something special. But should it really allways be connected to the other 8 knobs? |
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Bald Eagle
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 2278
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: |
I said it is starnge that it can only comtroll the 8 knobs.. Wouldnt it just be better to have the superknob controll any set of parameters you want.. And then have 8 different parametesrs on the knobs that you can controll on top of that |
It doesn't really seem strange. It's a knob that turns the other knobs. It pretty much does what the name of it implies.
It seems the motion sequencer would be used for more complex control of parameters. |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | Bachus wrote: |
To bad the superknob only controlls the parameters allready assigned to the knobs...
Personally i think it would be more flexible if i could just assign any number of parameters to the superknob, or any knob for that... |
I think you are significantly under estimating what the Superknob can control, and missing the point of Montage quite significantly.
The key point isn't just what Superknob can control - it's what the 8 other knobs can control and the ease with which they can be configured. Essentially Montage is an integrated performance system. The 8 knobs provide for transparent control of any feature of the instrument from the guts of a synth engine to a motion sequence to an arpeggiator to effects.
Coupled to what Motion Control, the Envelope Follower and Arpeggiator actually bring to the picture; plus there being only Performances and no other 'Modes' means you are always in performance control and always have access to all performance features, so there will always be freedom to create performance based setups with no compromises.
Given the superlative underlying synth engines, an unprecedented 32 effects and an arpeggiator with 10,000 patterns - to say nothing about what Motion Sequences actually are - and it's a pretty significant package.
Supreknob then provides one control access sitting on top of all of that.
This is a significant sound design / performance package. As said repeatedly - fine if it's not for you - but be careful about expressing whether or not you like it as distinct to denigrating its features - it's a huge package filled with a plethora of new and powerful features - there very little "only" about Montage!
To repeat - if you don't like it that's allowed - nobody's saying it should be universally loved - but it is a mighty package that Yamaha have put out here. I'd recommend a careful read of both the brochure and the available manual. |
I didnt say the superknob was not powerfull..
I said it is starnge that it can only comtroll the 8 knobs.. Wouldnt it just be better to have the superknob controll any set of parameters you want.. And then have 8 different parametesrs on the knobs that you can controll on top of that...
A good example would be the superknob switching between several different instruments and then having knob 1 controll the cutoff of asynth in the performance and knob 2 a delay parameter that arent part of the superknob set of parameters....
Controlling all from a single knob might be very powerfull, it also sounds very gimmicky.. Yes i do like the idea behind a superknoB, espescially how its programmed into every performance to do something special. But should it really allways be connected to the other 8 knobs? |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess it has to do with ease of programming. On all Korg flagships you can control almost all parameters with one knob if you would want to (I wonder if anyone has every looked for the CPU limits on this) but it's more hassle to setup. |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3126
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bald Eagle wrote: | | Bachus wrote: |
I said it is starnge that it can only comtroll the 8 knobs.. Wouldnt it just be better to have the superknob controll any set of parameters you want.. And then have 8 different parametesrs on the knobs that you can controll on top of that |
It doesn't really seem strange. It's a knob that turns the other knobs. It pretty much does what the name of it implies.
It seems the motion sequencer would be used for more complex control of parameters. |
Still strange, we need to see how much freedom there is, like adding multiple parameters to the normal knobs, or switching between those knobs and other parameters.. |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | I guess it has to do with ease of programming. On all Korg flagships you can control almost all parameters with one knob if you would want to (I wonder if anyone has every looked for the CPU limits on this) but it's more hassle to setup. |
Agree completely - Korg's AMS, AMS Mixers, and Dynamic MIDI are amazing. Coupled to synth engines features like 4 LFO's, step sequencers, manipulation of wave sequences on a step by step basis, Karma, vector synthesis and the near modular nature of Mod-7 and you have among the most sophisticated set of sound design and realtime sound manipulation tools available. All of those coupled to vector joystick, ribbon and superlative control surface and it's a synthesists dream.
But as you say it's time consuming explore and set up. I have all sorts of imagined sound design projects I'm dying to get at on OASYS but just can't find the time of late - but will eventually.
And indeed it will be interesting to see if Montage's similar features are easy to access or also embedded within complex setups also needing time.
Overall, the sound design tools available to us are probably orders of magnitude beyond what any reasonable person has time for - I'd say even spending a lot of time with Korg's Gadget would reveal wonders of sound design capability !! |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| I can definitely see the appeal of quickly assigning the "super knob" to a few of the already accessible parameters. But it feels like a "light" version of what Nord has. I don't know if you've ever played a Stage, Electro or one of the newer Leads but their controller setup is amazing. |
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jeremykeys
Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 3092
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | I guess it has to do with ease of programming. On all Korg flagships you can control almost all parameters with one knob if you would want to (I wonder if anyone has every looked for the CPU limits on this) but it's more hassle to setup. |
That's probably quite true but I think, as with anything to do with the kronos, once you have done it a few times, it would become quite easy. Perhaps as easy as on the Montage. Having never tried any of this I can only speculate but it seems likely to me.
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats! |
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | I can definitely see the appeal of quickly assigning the "super knob" to a few of the already accessible parameters. But it feels like a "light" version of what Nord has. I don't know if you've ever played a Stage, Electro or one of the newer Leads but their controller setup is amazing. |
I'm likely to open up another debate here - I've played both the Electro and Stage, and find their pianos - all of them - nothing short of pathetic.
Their acoustic pianos are horrendous. Utterly horrendous. We're talking early 1990's Rompler quality here.
As for their CP80 'attempt' - the CP80 in the 1991 PCM Pianos Expansion card for my JD800 is noticeably better. Fender Rhodes don't fair any better. They are like 'cheesy cliches' of each piano that'll sound good in a pub-style PA.
By a country mile, the worst 'pianos' instrument out there. It's bought for its cool red look - like the Apple logo, you're not going to make it as a band unless you have a red keyboard on stage - surely the only reason why they are so successful. |
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