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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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 Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| If people use the sampler at all I would say it is to simply load new sounds. 1.75GB of flash for user samples is really quite good and definitely better than the Motif where you had to buy this separately at pretty high cost. |
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jeremykeys
Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 3092
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| aron wrote: | > my Polysix blew it away
Take me back to the cassette backup! The Polysix was so fun. |
Now that's a fact!
Even though menues give you more options, I think sometimes they canget in the way of spontaneous sound creation.
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats! |
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Bachus
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 3127
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | If people use the sampler at all I would say it is to simply load new sounds. 1.75GB of flash for user samples is really quite good and definitely better than the Motif where you had to buy this separately at pretty high cost. |
Common, my Motif XF had ( before is sold it) 4GB of sampling flash... And i kept running short..
Now compare this to Kronos and tell me again how much you can dow with 1,75GB? |
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jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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You still can do a lot of nice music with the Montage.
But yes, the limitations sum up and aren't small or irrelevant.
How useful and how acceptable can that package be, with nearly the price tag of a Kronos?
i have serious doubts about the Montage-concept, though I definitely like some of it's UI and of it's sounds.
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | If people use the sampler at all I would say it is to simply load new sounds. 1.75GB of flash for user samples is really quite good and definitely better than the Motif where you had to buy this separately at pretty high cost. |
Common, my Motif XF had ( before is sold it) 4GB of sampling flash... And i kept running short..
Now compare this to Kronos and tell me again how much you can dow with 1,75GB? |
I'm hardly disputing that the Kronos lets you do more. But the generation before the Kronos, the M3, had a maximum of 256MB of volatile RAM! I'm saying 1.75GB of flash, included, is not bad for a synth. How much do the recent Nords have? 512MB? And what was the retail price of that 4GB board for your XF when it came out?
Like everyone, I'm disappointed that the Montage isn't more than it is. It seems a fairly average player that does some things well and has severe lacks in other areas. But somehow the "lack of a sampler" idea is already floating around and with 1.75GB of included space I don't think that's fair. |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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> 4GB board for your XF when it came out
I remember one of the Motif look minutes to boot like the Kronos except it seemed like it was much longer - due to the extra memory.
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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Bald Eagle
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 2278
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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When you compare the Montage to the Kronos feature by feature guess which one will come out on top. They are not the same so it's really hard to make a good comparison. I mean you might as well compare the Moog Sub 37 to the Kronos , just one engine on the Sub 37 and no built in FX.
I'm trying to look at the Montage for what it is by itself which is a bit difficult without having a reference manual or hands on.
Personally I think the Montage has possibilities. They seem to have streamlined things in a good way. For example, everything, even a single voice is a performance. And from what I've read you can reference one performance slot from another performance sort of like program mode. They also seem to have done a lot with the motion sequencer and the Super Knob is cool.
Omitting some basic editing from the sequencer was a mistake and something like RPPR would have been nice (maybe there is some other way). And as I said before, they should have at least included a VA engine (and CX-3 as I'm a long time Hammond fan).
Sampling omissions are not a big concern for me. I have other ways to sample.
In the end, I haven't committed yet but I do like the Montage for what it has to offer. It needs some work but I generally like the direction. |
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fcoulter
Senior Member
Joined: 31 Jul 2015
Posts: 271
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | It may be that Kronos has a serious competitor after all!
Montage contains ten times the PCM samples of Motif - that's getting serious, plus a new FM-X synthesis engine. That is can read the legacy of Motif programs, and can also read the 71,000 program legacy of DX FM programs is a game changer for me - very often it's by harnessing the best of thousands of programmers that these instruments really begin to 'sing'. Have never been a fan of Motif, but this is a different beast altogether; and for us long term FM heads - it's Christmas all over again 
If it is compatible with SY RCM programs that would be incredible (but unclear if that's the case). And with sophisticated DSP effects, perhaps we can even hope for a nod towards FDSP type effects.
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Doesn't the Kronos already read DX-7 files? Or am I confused.
The ability for the Montage to read DX-7 files is coming "Real Soon Now". I contacted Yamaha about moving my SY-99 sounds over and they said "ain't happening." |
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Derek Cook
Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| fcoulter wrote: | | Kevin Nolan wrote: | It may be that Kronos has a serious competitor after all!
Montage contains ten times the PCM samples of Motif - that's getting serious, plus a new FM-X synthesis engine. That is can read the legacy of Motif programs, and can also read the 71,000 program legacy of DX FM programs is a game changer for me - very often it's by harnessing the best of thousands of programmers that these instruments really begin to 'sing'. Have never been a fan of Motif, but this is a different beast altogether; and for us long term FM heads - it's Christmas all over again
If it is compatible with SY RCM programs that would be incredible (but unclear if that's the case). And with sophisticated DSP effects, perhaps we can even hope for a nod towards FDSP type effects.
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Doesn't the Kronos already read DX-7 files? Or am I confused.
The ability for the Montage to read DX-7 files is coming "Real Soon Now". I contacted Yamaha about moving my SY-99 sounds over and they said "ain't happening." |
Yes, MOD7 can ready DX7 SYSEX files.
SY conversion would be more complicated. This is me speaking as somebody who has written AN1x converters for EX5, and DX7 for FS1r and SY series.
DX conversion is fairly simple, so long as you can find algorithms to match (freely patachable operators in the Kronos helps there ). It's easy to do the similarities, but it's what you do with the differences. For example operator rate scaling on the DX7 and SY is completely different, so you can only approximate the DX7. Conversion will never be perfect, and it's the differences and how you can overcome those (if at all) that will dictate how good the conversion will be.
With SY to Montage, the issues will be:
- Can you map the algorithms (don't know yet)
- How compatible are the parameters (don't know yet, but we could hypothesise if we assume the FM-X is close to FS1r FM less formant synthesis)
- No RCM - so no interplay between AWM and FM
- SY AWM samples - but I guess you could sample them and put them in the Montage User Sample memory
- Can you find mappings for the SY effects, and more significantly the effects architecture
If I do get a Montage and write a librarian for it, I might look at it to see how feasible it is, but the differences might be too great. I also have no plans to sell my SY99 and TG77, so it would be on the "technical challenge to do if really bored" feature list  Having said that if I could get approximations of SY sounds, then it means I have something to use on stage without taking the older units out. So, you never know......
BTW: I just occurred to me, that one reason for "lifting half the the FS1r" architecture is because, compared to the SY series, the mapping to DX7 is very simple. It is also probably why Yamaha are hyping the DX7 heritage only, despite the SY being a far more capable machine.
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Derek Cook - Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website |
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Derek Cook
Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Apologies if this has already been asked in the last 18 pages 
But whilst writing my last reply, I was drawn again to the title of this thread
| Quote: | | Yamaha New Synth with Alien Technology |
So, where is this alien technology? It's not AWM or FM.....
Is there still a surprise in store?
_________________
Derek Cook - Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website |
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jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:36 am Post subject: |
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That sentence was nothing but some hot air from Richard Devine, raising completely unrealistic expectations. 
All I can imagine is that he was referring to the Montage modulation design, which is obviously borrowing heavily from Stephen Kay's Karma ideas.
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5 |
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afr
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Derek Cook wrote: | Apologies if this has already been asked in the last 18 pages
But whilst writing my last reply, I was drawn again to the title of this thread
| Quote: | | Yamaha New Synth with Alien Technology |
So, where is this alien technology? It's not AWM or FM.....
Is there still a surprise in store? |
No surprise, montage is what it is
"alien" can be the flashing super knob, it recall an UFO |
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jeremykeys
Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 3092
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| afr wrote: | | Derek Cook wrote: | Apologies if this has already been asked in the last 18 pages
But whilst writing my last reply, I was drawn again to the title of this thread
| Quote: | | Yamaha New Synth with Alien Technology |
So, where is this alien technology? It's not AWM or FM.....
Is there still a surprise in store? |
No surprise, montage is what it is
"alien" can be the flashing super knob, it recall an UFO |
And to think that my wife and I just started watching the X Files on Netflix starting right from the beginning....1 I gues "the Truth is Out There" means Yamaha
@ Bald Eagle. Tell me what it is about the "Super Knob" that appeals to you? I'm really curious because to me I don't really get it.
No offense intended here. Except for the fact that it's a big flashing thing, I don't get what it does.
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats! |
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Bald Eagle
Platinum Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 2278
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| jeremykeys wrote: | @ Bald Eagle. Tell me what it is about the "Super Knob" that appeals to you? I'm really curious because to me I don't really get it.
No offense intended here. Except for the fact that it's a big flashing thing, I don't get what it does. |
I like big flashing things ... But the way I understand the Super Knob is that it is simply a macro controller that can simultaneously control the 8 assignable knobs. The knobs in turn can be assigned to pretty much anything. And if the individual knob assignments can be stored per scene it adds even more possibilities.
While it seems you can accomplish something similar with the Knonos AMS it just seems more flexible and a bit easier to set up with the Super Knob. Of course there is no magic in setting up everything to do something useful. A lot of thought is still required.
I guess it's like a master Tone Adjust knob. Then again, I could be wrong since I haven't had a chance to play one and there is no Parameter Guide yet.
As I said before, it's cool, but certainly not new ground breaking alien technology. |
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jeremykeys
Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Posts: 3092
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Truth be told, I think we all like big flashing things! I guess I'll just have to do the same thing. That id to try one one it gets to a store near me.
_________________
If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats! |
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