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jimknopf
Platinum Member
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 3374
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 Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:25 am Post subject: |
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I have my Kronos since July 2011 and profited from OS updates and own upgrading (RAM and SSD).
If today I had the choice to buy that Kronos or the Montage, I wouldn't even consider buying the Montage. The reason is simple:
- the Montage has very few things over the Kronos. Just some nice sounds (especially electric guitars), a little bit more FM maybe (but without the Kronos ability to load DX patches directly, only a converter - later) and some nice acoustic sounds. Even the Motion Synth thing looks like a simplified version of Karma with essentially Karma ideas in it to me. And in some ways the Montage has limitations which are a serious step back behind the Motif series.
- the Kronos still has lots of things over the Motif at only a slightly higher price. Main things to me are the Kronos VAs (I heavily dislike the flat, lifeless and polished synth sounds I hear from the Montage demos, with their funny effort to sound like EDM for solo entertainers or for elevator music) and a very useable B3 emulation (the Yamaha B3s and Leslie sim really don't convince in any way), SSD sample streaming (including user streaming) and a fully working Midi and Audio sequencer covering all playback needs. All in all that and other things sum up so much, that the Montage could only be a second keyboard for someone with a Kronos IMHO. But would I dish out the Montage price for a few sounds and things I get over the Kronos? Everybody has to answer that for themselves, but I certainly wouldn't and won't.
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Kronos 73 - Moog Voyager RME - Moog LP TE - Behringer Model D - Prophet 6 - Roland Jupiter Xm - Rhodes Stage 73 Mk I - Elektron Analog Rytm MkII - Roland TR-6s - Cubase 12 Pro + Groove Agent 5
Last edited by jimknopf on Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jan1
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 765
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:52 am Post subject: |
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I agree with you Jim.
The Montage has the advantage of a much larger memory for the samples used by the AWM2 engine, and that's part of the reason why the acoustic sounds I heard so far sound better and more detailed than what is present in the KRONOS HD-1.
But that's just one particular engine, and the KRONOS has so much more to offer.
The pianos are in no way inferior to the piano in the Montage, and the organ engine in the KRONOS is a lot better than the onboard samples in the Montage.
Considering both are priced approx. the same there's no doubt in my mind which of the two I would choose.
The Montage has some interesting new sound shaping features, but is that worth the premium pricetag?
Look at what the KRONOS offers for that price...
But then again, anyone who is looking for a high end workstation has no other option than the KRONOS, since none of the others have come up with a comparable workstation. |
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burningbusch
Approved Merchant
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1203
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Jan1 wrote: | I agree with you Jim.
The Montage has the advantage of a much larger memory for the samples used by the AWM2 engine, and that's part of the reason why the acoustic sounds I heard so far sound better and more detailed than what is present in the KRONOS HD-1.
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Actually, the Montage has a much SMALLER capacity for samples. Because the Kronos uses streaming from SSD it can have 10s of gigabytes loaded and all playable. For example, my EXs147 C7 Grand library is 1.9GB in size and wouldn't in the 1.75GB user ram area on the Montage. But in the Kronos, because of streaming, the 1.9GB library only uses 40MB of RAM. The new CFX piano in the Montage has all notes samples and more layers than the previous Motif pianos. It is the first time, to my knowledge, Yamaha has provided a piano in one of its keyboard in which every note was sampled. The Kronos, in contrast, has four pianos available in which each note was sampled with the first three having eight velocity layers and the new Berlin Grand having twelve. The Berlin Grand + the new samples in EXs18 alone (9.5GB) would account for more than all of the memory in the Montage.
Streaming creates instruments dynamically. It's a much more sophisticated approach vs. loading all samples into RAM or doing the same thing with expensive, but limited Flash memory.
Busch.
_________________
Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com |
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EvilDragon
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Yep. There are pros and cons. I think the single biggest pro of Montage is SIXTEEN SECONDS BOOT TIME. Much, much better than Kronos. I'd take that as a huge advantage, especially if s**t happens mid-gig. 2+ minutes of boot time is simply not something I'd want to have on a stage. Might as well bring a laptop and use Kontakt libraries which sound much better than Kronos' sample sets.
Oh, and LEDs aroung encoders and sliders. That's what Kronos really misses. That was a stroke of genius with the OASYS, and it's not true that they cost so much to implement... |
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Jan1
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 765
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| burningbusch wrote: | | Jan1 wrote: | I agree with you Jim.
The Montage has the advantage of a much larger memory for the samples used by the AWM2 engine, and that's part of the reason why the acoustic sounds I heard so far sound better and more detailed than what is present in the KRONOS HD-1.
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Actually, the Montage has a much SMALLER capacity for samples. Because the Kronos uses streaming from SSD it can have 10s of gigabytes loaded and all playable. For example, my EXs147 C7 Grand library is 1.9GB in size and wouldn't in the 1.75GB user ram area on the Montage. But in the Kronos, because of streaming, the 1.9GB library only uses 40MB of RAM. The new CFX piano in the Montage has all notes samples and more layers than the previous Motif pianos. It is the first time, to my knowledge, Yamaha has provided a piano in one of its keyboard in which every note was sampled. The Kronos, in contrast, has four pianos available in which each note was sampled with the first three having eight velocity layers and the new Berlin Grand having twelve. The Berlin Grand + the new samples in EXs18 alone (9.5GB) would account for more than all of the memory in the Montage.
Streaming creates instruments dynamically. It's a much more sophisticated approach vs. loading all samples into RAM or doing the same thing with expensive, but limited Flash memory.
Busch. |
That's true, if you take streaming in consideration the capacity for large sampling sets is far greater in the KRONOS, but that particular comment I made was more in reference to the HD-1 ROM waveform memory vs. the ROM for the AWM2 engine in the Montage, such as strings, woodwinds, guitar, etc.
But the sample streaming on the KRONOS offers indeed huge advantages when it comes to emulating instruments, another + in favor of the KRONOS.
I personally do not find it hard to choose between the two. |
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burningbusch
Approved Merchant
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1203
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Jan1 wrote: | | burningbusch wrote: | | Jan1 wrote: | I agree with you Jim.
The Montage has the advantage of a much larger memory for the samples used by the AWM2 engine, and that's part of the reason why the acoustic sounds I heard so far sound better and more detailed than what is present in the KRONOS HD-1.
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Actually, the Montage has a much SMALLER capacity for samples. Because the Kronos uses streaming from SSD it can have 10s of gigabytes loaded and all playable. For example, my EXs147 C7 Grand library is 1.9GB in size and wouldn't in the 1.75GB user ram area on the Montage. But in the Kronos, because of streaming, the 1.9GB library only uses 40MB of RAM. The new CFX piano in the Montage has all notes samples and more layers than the previous Motif pianos. It is the first time, to my knowledge, Yamaha has provided a piano in one of its keyboard in which every note was sampled. The Kronos, in contrast, has four pianos available in which each note was sampled with the first three having eight velocity layers and the new Berlin Grand having twelve. The Berlin Grand + the new samples in EXs18 alone (9.5GB) would account for more than all of the memory in the Montage.
Streaming creates instruments dynamically. It's a much more sophisticated approach vs. loading all samples into RAM or doing the same thing with expensive, but limited Flash memory.
Busch. |
That's true, if you take streaming in consideration the capacity for large sampling sets is far greater in the KRONOS, but my comment was more in reference to the HD-1 ROM waveform memory vs. the ROM for the AWM2 engine in the Montage.
But the sample streaming on the KRONOS offers indeed huge advantages when it comes to emulating instruments, another + in favor of the KRONOS. |
Even then, it's still not true. When you add up the number of GBs in PRELOAD on the original Kronos it is more than the total capacity (factory + user) on the Montage. With the Kronos 2, it's even more. The majority of the sounds on the Montage are from the Motif. People can prefer the Yamaha guitars over the Korg, which I understand. Early on, I converted the Indiginus Guitars into the Kronos and I have some of the most beautiful acoustics you can find ($40). Bringing software libraries into the Kronos is not a big deal, for the most part.
ROM on the Kronos doesn't really exist. There are 320MB of legacy samples which are always loaded, as much as anything for compatibility reasons. But the instrument shouldn't judged on those samples alone. Judge the instrument on PRELOAD.
Busch.
_________________
Kronos 73, Nautilus 61, Vox Continental 73, Monologue, Yamaha Montage 8, Rhodes Suitcase, Yamaha VL-1, Roland V-Synth, Yamaha AvantGrand, Minimoog Model D, Studio Electronics Omega 8, CSS, Spitfire, VSL, LASS, Sample Modeling, Ivory, Komplete 12, Spectrasonics, Cubase, Pro Tools, etc.
http://www.purgatorycreek.com |
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dfahrner
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 571
Location: Bend, OR
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| EvilDragon wrote: | | Yep. There are pros and cons. I think the single biggest pro of Montage is SIXTEEN SECONDS BOOT TIME. Much, much better than Kronos. I'd take that as a huge advantage, especially if s**t happens mid-gig. 2+ minutes of boot time is simply not something I'd want to have on a stage. Might as well bring a laptop and use Kontakt libraries which sound much better than Kronos' sample sets. |
This is the "biggest pro"? Why people keep talking about boot time (except on stage) is something I don't get at all, and the on-stage problem is easily solved with a small, cheap UPS - and you probably need a power block anyway, so it's not even another piece of equipment to carry...a 16-second boot time is better, but it hardly seems like a "huge advantage"...
| EvilDragon wrote: | | Oh, and LEDs aroung encoders and sliders. That's what Kronos really misses. That was a stroke of genius with the OASYS, and it's not true that they cost so much to implement... |
I sure don't miss a whole bunch of LEDs all over the panel, I even wish I could turn off the KRONOS Tempo light...
...and again, these are pretty much just opinions, and we know what opinions are like, everybody's got one...
df |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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>Might as well bring a laptop and use Kontakt libraries which sound much better than Kronos' sample sets.
Then add all the time it takes to set up and other logistical factors. I had the choice, no way was I going to take my Retina Macbook on stage. The Kronos is a way better choice for the live player.
On the 2 1/2 minute startup time, I agree that if something happens, it's a pain, but having had this happen, I would still not choose the Montage over the Kronos based on this one factor.
LED indicators, cool, but not even a necessity.
Again, if I chose the Montage over the Kronos, it would be because I like Yamaha sounds - I would bet most people don't even know how to program FM and most of the people I know that play live will not learn or even try. Most of them just tweak existing sounds and why not if the sounds get close?
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I have an original K88 and have been gigging it weekly or more for nearly 4 years now, I've had "something happen" that required a reboot only once and that involved someone kicking out the power cable. 16 seconds is better than two minutes but I feel forgiving because the Kronos is so much better than any other board I could bring. It really really is not an issue, especially if you bring a UPS. |
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Devnor
Full Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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The CFX demos I've heard on youtube sound very good. It's probably a completely different experience in person thru a decent system. At this stage the perceived "need" for gigabytes of piano samples and/or streaming technology really only benefits those selling 3rd party libraries. Folks might have a different perspective if they could sell their wares for Montage.
Not everyone wants to drag a heavy, standby UPS to gigs especially those who share the stage with other acts.
There is updated info on FM-X at yamahasynth.com |
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BobTheDog
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 1535
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| A ups is the least of your problems if you are lugging around a k88 and monitoring system! |
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Derek Cook
Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Bachus wrote: | My friend George asked some questions on my behave on NAMM to YAmaha..
2 huge disappointments.
- The midi, you cant use physical MIDI and MIDI USB at the same time, you need to choose either of them
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I couldn't believe that restriction back on 2006 on the Motif Rack ES. Sounds like they haven't learnt,then 
I am betting as well that the MIDI Echo found on my EX5 (phenomenally useful in a live rig) is still AWOL. If it is then that will mean faffing about with MIDI Mergers and splitters, which I have managed to avoid to date.
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Derek Cook - Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website |
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aron
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 1549
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah the UPS is really nothing to carry around.
What I have found is that most pianos DO sound great as demos. When you play live, you usually don't need the multi-gigabytes of info. Look at the Kurzweil pianos - they must have been small, but people used them for years and it still holds up live.
I have no idea how big my PX-5S piano sample is, but it sounds and feels really great and the keyboard is only 24 pounds.
> but I feel forgiving because the Kronos is so much better than any other board I could bring
This is the truth. What other keyboard even comes close at this time for all of the power and ease of use for live players?? The set list mode is so good and fast!
I'm a big Yamaha fan and user from a long way back, but I am still waiting for the keyboard that I can use - and I mean the sound and form factor. On tours I rent Yamaha keyboards because they are quick to setup and easy to use but the later Motifs are slower. Hopefully this Montage will be easy to use. Will see.
Anyway, whoever gets one, let us know how it is. And after you get it, post your new FM program for us to check out.
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Korg Kronos, RD-88, Yamaha VL1, Deep Mind 6, Korg Kross, author of unrealBook for iPad. |
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Derek Cook
Approved Merchant
Joined: 20 Jul 2014
Posts: 1279
Location: Wales, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I was quite excited about the possibilities in the Montage. But I truth, with what I have seen/heard so far, I think Yamaha have taken an important step to reintroduce FM as well as AWM, but they have missed a trick as well in not adding more engines, or going back to FDSP, for example, which is one of the EX5's secret weapons.
I will still be auditioning a Montage when I can, as I need a good controller board (in additional to my Kronos X 61) so I can retire my EX5 from gigging. Or that is the plan. If I don't feel I can justify the cost of the Montage, I might look for an end of line XF or consider a Nord Stage.
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Derek Cook - Java Developer
Follow kronos.factory development and submit ideas over at the kronos.factory Trello Board
My Echoes Music Website
My Carreg Ddu Music Website |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BobTheDog wrote: | | A ups is the least of your problems if you are lugging around a k88 and monitoring system! |
This!
Sorry, but while I agree a UPS is heavier than a regular power block but it's really trivial next to an 88. |
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