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I agree with Derek Cook, and With my own experience I think that the VSTs (instruments and effects) and the DAW are the perfect companions for the Kronos and any other workstation. We cannot ask to a workstation to be able to do all. And fortunately ! _________________ trees are going fast.
but I think the workstation market is now dead, and Yamaha made the first jump away from it with the Montage concept.
Well, for a dead market it shows surprisingly much activity.
Roland with the Fantom, then Yamaha had second thoughts and moved both the Montage and MODX into workstation territory, Kurzweil has a PC4, so a dead market?
I don’t think so.
Why invest in a dead market?
For me Korg Kronos is a love/hate affair, the story of failure as well,
shipped with an abandonware, and unpolished system. Korg had so many years to do just that, instead they have chosen to upgrade colour and patches to cause polyphony misery even deeper. The quality of presets is in question, why would anyone shipped a synthesizer with COMBIS that cause 100 voice stealing. DAW integration and co-operation with other hardware is in question too.
So it’s better to leave Kronos on its own and call it a King.
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:17 am Post subject:
Poseidon wrote:
F. Korg had so many years to do just that, instead they have chosen to upgrade colour and patches to cause polyphony misery even deeper. The quality of presets is in question, why would anyone shipped a synthesizer with COMBIS that cause 100 voice stealing. DAW integration and co-operation with other hardware is in question too.
So it’s better to leave Kronos on its own and call it a King.
I tend to agree with you. I think after 3.0, Korg went in sloMo mode with Kronos.
That was December 2014.
the 3rd parties kept offering new sample libs which maintained interest.
The polyphony issue bites the big one. I am finishing a new song using the SEQ and I have to juggle the 'priority ' to prevent cut offs of instruments. Plus when I am adding a voice hungry [AL-1] synth solo, I have to alter my style, to avoid clipping and dropped instruments.
I gave up on griping, I just adapt. I still love Kronos as I don't believe any board is going to be perfect. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
GregC wrote :
The polyphony issue bites the big one. I am finishing a new song using the SEQ and I have to juggle the 'priority ' to prevent cut offs of instruments. Plus when I am adding a voice hungry [AL-1] synth solo, I have to alter my style, to avoid clipping and dropped instruments.
Hello Greg,
That's why a well chosen DAW sequencer is a must.
I have experienced the same issues concerning the priority etc etc and one day I have connected my Kronos to my DAW, and what a big friendship between the DAW and the Kronos ! (I still use the Kronos sequencer at the start)
The real question is to get the real good sequencer for the DAW.
I assume that if one day you choose a DAW sequencer, you won't regret it.
But... ... choose the real good... ....
They are not so many.... _________________ trees are going fast.
I tend to agree with you. I think after 3.0, Korg went in sloMo mode with Kronos.
That was December 2014.
the 3rd parties kept offering new sample libs which maintained interest.
The polyphony issue bites the big one. I am finishing a new song using the SEQ and I have to juggle the 'priority ' to prevent cut offs of instruments. Plus when I am adding a voice hungry [AL-1] synth solo, I have to alter my style, to avoid clipping and dropped instruments.
I gave up on griping, I just adapt. I still love Kronos as I don't believe any board is going to be perfect.
I love my Kronos too. it’s a unique creature, a very inspirational, and a great tool to write music ideas so later they can be shifted into production in DAW.
Do I regret buying kronos ?
no, but with my current knowledge I would not buy Kronos these days.
Instead it would be wiser to spend money on prophet X.
And I am not going to sell it either, because what’s the point to loose money.
I have decided to quit workstation market, and I go for multi-instruments setup.
Regarding Polyphony, my problem is not the SPECS, but the ease you enter a “red zone”.
Nearly half of my time is dedicated to tweak here and there.
That’s the main source of my hate towards kronos, and that sluggish GUI slows me too when you choose patches.
Kronos have a fundamental design flaw, If only there is a seperate DSP chip, I guess practicality of polyphony would be solved.
1°) Just compare the Behringer's ultra dynamism and creativity and prices with Korg ! Almost every month, a new good product is available. It's just one example : have a look to Eurorack Go, a new product presented on Behringer Youtube chanel yesterday. This product is not yet avalable, though they modfy a little point according to some future users comments !! We could expect such a behavior from Korg.
2°) As regards the Kronos itself, once again, I consider that the great majority of owners have just scratch the surface of the huge sounds design possibilities. All in all, there are very few creative third party sounds banks available. The most of them are based on samples, for HD-1 engine. I don't know how many sounds banks based on MOD-7, STR-1 or AL-1 only, but there are very few. Yet, the sound design allowed by these three engines are absolutely huge.
3°) Korg is fully responsible. As we say in french "ils se reposent sur leurs lauriers", they rely on their past achievements. On the same hardware, they could have worked on some good software improvements each year. Many improvement ideas has been suggested here. They could pick upon some and work on them.
Instead of that, they took "a red paint can", paint the Kronos box, put another Piano sound in it (nobody asked for it !!) and say "hey you all, look, our new Kronos !!" so pathetic !
4°) We all know that : Korg absolutely don't care of what we could ask for, or expect.
Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 2434 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:58 am Post subject:
Liviou2004 wrote:
I would like to know the Mike's opinion (Mike Conway). Because, I'm still giving a close look at the Deepmind 12, as a complement.
So, I you read this post, Mike, do you still enjoy the Kronos / Deepmind duo ?
Hey, I just saw this. I have been playing with the Deepmind so much, that I bought a second one. On first play, the Deepmind 12 is not a stunning choice. Because I like to tweak, I can get sounds out of it that most people can't. I recorded this level too hot, but listen to these sounds:
The first two minutes are sounds I made. The Deepmind can use 6 filters at once, so that's where I like to get creative. But, I would hesitate to recommend to to somebody who thinks they can just produce out of the world sonics without putting some work into it. At least now, there are some very good libraries for it. Factory sounds are probably not going to blow your hair back, so go 3rd party.
My tweaking also applies to Kronos, such as how I use the sequencer, FX, etc. I can streamline programs, so that I can get far more polyphony than the average user. Though I've used quite a few MOD-7 and AL-1 sounds, in the past, lately it has been more HD-1 and sampling.
And, here it is folks - Kronos is one of the few full featured samplers on the market. Sure, other gear can sample, but try multisampling with a Montage or Fantom. Not happening. And, less expensive gear isn't providing Kronos level features.
As much as I like the Deepmind 12, most of my project work is done with just the Kronos, or with Kronos and Virus TI. If appropriate, I try to work them all in, but for me, it's faster to just use the Kronos.
I am used to all the screens and workflows, but it certainly helped that had a Triton upbringing, and that I learned, using the big screen of the OASYS. When I got to Kronos, it was more of a matter of appreciating some new features (like sample streaming) than having to re-learn something. I can see how it would be hard, for someone starting out, to figure out all the functionality with a smaller, non-tiltable screen.
Thank you Mike for this very interesting post. I've just watched your two videos about DM12 filters, very interesting too. Very good idea to use one Fx in order to get a real HP filter.
Did you try to connect your DM12 into Kronos analog entries and :
1) Sample it
2) Use Kronos FX
3) use it in EXi engines wich accept analog inputs and treat the signal with Kronos filters (AL-1, MOD-7 or STR-1) ?
1°) Just compare the Behringer's ultra dynamism and creativity and prices with Korg ! Almost every month, a new good product is available. It's just one example : have a look to Eurorack Go, a new product presented on Behringer Youtube chanel yesterday. This product is not yet avalable, though they modfy a little point according to some future users comments !! We could expect such a behavior from Korg.
Just as a side note:
Behringer is good and bad news for my bank account.
Good because of the low prices, bad because it is so hard to resist.
I find it amazing how they are able to produce their synths at such low prices.
Just the other day I could not resist the offer for the Odyssey at 380 Euros considering how well built this synth is, including an FX engine which can be synced.
And having a demonstrator like Moot Booxle definitely helps because he knows how to demonstrate the particular characteristics of the synths.
I can only hope KORG has been reading the comments of people on this forum.
The thing is, with Behringer Uli tends to step in an provides direct feedback so that you know what Behringer intends to do, with the others it is a matter of silence until finally a product is announced and it becomes clear or not whether they have listened to feedback of their user base.
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:08 pm Post subject:
Liviou2004 wrote:
Generally speaking, agree with you all.
1°) Just compare the Behringer's ultra dynamism and creativity and prices with Korg ! Almost every month, a new good product is available. It's just one example : have a look to Eurorack Go, a new product presented on Behringer Youtube chanel yesterday. This product is not yet avalable, though they modfy a little point according to some future users comments !! We could expect such a behavior from Korg.
2°) As regards the Kronos itself, once again, I consider that the great majority of owners have just scratch the surface of the huge sounds design possibilities. All in all, there are very few creative third party sounds banks available. The most of them are based on samples, for HD-1 engine. I don't know how many sounds banks based on MOD-7, STR-1 or AL-1 only, but there are very few. Yet, the sound design allowed by these three engines are absolutely huge.
3°) Korg is fully responsible. As we say in french "ils se reposent sur leurs lauriers", they rely on their past achievements. On the same hardware, they could have worked on some good software improvements each year. Many improvement ideas has been suggested here. They could pick upon some and work on them.
Instead of that, they took "a red paint can", paint the Kronos box, put another Piano sound in it (nobody asked for it !!) and say "hey you all, look, our new Kronos !!" so pathetic !
4°) We all know that : Korg absolutely don't care of what we could ask for, or expect.
Have been harping on Korg's Sr management on 'communication ' for some time. The silence [ as it relates to Kronos] goes on for 6-12 months. When there is 'something ', its practically newsworthy.
For example, Korg released OS upgrades for several keyboards in early December. Not a bit about Kronos.
So 2 weeks have gone by, and the secret silence continues.
It gets annoying to speculate and read between the lines. It seems like Kronos will continue at retail for some time. I see no price decline in the US.
Looks like business as usual. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:09 pm Post subject:
kronoSphere wrote:
GregC wrote :
The polyphony issue bites the big one. I am finishing a new song using the SEQ and I have to juggle the 'priority ' to prevent cut offs of instruments. Plus when I am adding a voice hungry [AL-1] synth solo, I have to alter my style, to avoid clipping and dropped instruments.
Hello Greg,
That's why a well chosen DAW sequencer is a must.
I have experienced the same issues concerning the priority etc etc and one day I have connected my Kronos to my DAW, and what a big friendship between the DAW and the Kronos ! (I still use the Kronos sequencer at the start)
The real question is to get the real good sequencer for the DAW.
I assume that if one day you choose a DAW sequencer, you won't regret it.
But... ... choose the real good... ....
They are not so many....
thanks for the post, I am ready to go with Cubase.
I have asked this question about 10 times without an answer:
Is is better to record Kronos programs in your DAW 'dry ' or without Kronos FX ? And then add FX to your instrument tracks just prior to your 1st mix ?
Or just record Kronos Programs/midi instruments with full FX into your DAW. ? At which point, that would be an audio file with FX. And another audio master file or final mix would be created later.
There is a reason why have this question, but will hold that part if I get an answer to the above _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994
I have asked this question about 10 times without an answer:
Is is better to record Kronos programs in your DAW 'dry ' or without Kronos FX ? And then add FX to your instrument tracks just prior to your 1st mix ?
Or just record Kronos Programs/midi instruments with full FX into your DAW. ? At which point, that would be an audio file with FX. And another audio master file or final mix would be created later.
There is a reason why have this question, but will hold that part if I get an answer to the above
I'm not sure there's a standard one-size-fits-all answer to this question. The most flexible approach is to record dry with no FX. Then you can change the FX settings all the way up until you master the track. You could even run the dry track back through the Kronos effects and capture new wet variants of the track from the dry one (with proper latency compensation).
That would seem like the obvious right answer, wouldn't it? More flexibility = good! But for me there's a downside in that you can end up in a weird place where you just can't stop tweaking things and it takes forever to get to a mix you're satisfied with. Kind of a too many options paralysis. Whereas committing to a decision up front for me can be a good workflow enabler/efficiency. You in effect say "I'm going to trust that my first decision was the right one."
So for me a good middle ground is to not hard-code things like room reverbs and FX that aren't an integral part of the sound, necessarily. Apply those later so that you can put different tracks in a similar sounding space. Leave things like comps, EQs and other more esoteric effects that are more integral to the timbre of the sound hard-coded into the recording.
I don't think there's a right or wrong answer though. It's whatever works best for you, and of course, make exceptions to your rules where it helps you to do so.
I have never be able to enter in the"world" of Cubase. I just don't like its conception. There are big DAW sequencers that are very powerful but are not instinctively easy to use. And there are also litlle sequencers that are easy to use but with to many limits to be usefull.
During years I have searching the best suitable for me and I have found it.
For exemple : in the field of the graphic softwares, Photoshop is very powerful AND ALSO very instinctively usable. All is made to make the user confident with it.
And, (don't make me wrong it's not an advertising) the Magix SEQUOIA DAW sequencer is a wondeful thing. Absolutely. The lingk with the Kronos in USB is so simple and... ... and the synchro also.
And the very very big adventage is the automation tools so simple to use.
And, last point : The big advantage is concerning the effects is that many plug is effects sound different and they render each track with a different clarity. Then the tracks are not "uniformised" they have each their personnality _________________ trees are going fast.
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