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Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 1:36 pm Post subject: PA5X SPEAKER CONNECTION PROBLEM
Good morning everyone, I wanted to ask for a little info
and since I recently purchased a pa5x 88 I have problems connecting the speakers, I'll explain
I tried connecting my HS8 speakers directly to the keyboard the songs and styles sound great how I put the piano sounds a disaster the piano sounds feel very metallic they are very ugly while in the headphones they are beautiful
I tried on my friend's pa5x 76 keys, the same problem, I tried changing speakers by connecting the focal shape 65, the same thing, is there any solution? do any of you have the same problem? sorry for the errors, I use the translator, I'm Italian, thanks
It could be a phasing issue. How are the HS8 speakers connected to the Pa5X? Have you connected one HS8 to the Pa5X Left Output jack, and the other HS8 to the Pa5X Right Output jack? Are the audio cable jack contacts clean and in good condition? Are you using TRS, or Stereo cables, and are they fully inserted? On the HS8, are the Room Control and High Trim switches set to 0dB on both speakers?
It could be a phasing issue. How are the HS8 speakers connected to the Pa5X? Have you connected one HS8 to the Pa5X Left Output jack, and the other HS8 to the Pa5X Right Output jack? Are the audio cable jack contacts clean and in good condition? Are you using TRS, or Stereo cables, and are they fully inserted? On the HS8, are the Room Control and High Trim switches set to 0dB on both speakers?
.
Hi thanks for the reply I did all the tests even changing the cables only I didn't use the stereo cables now I'm trying with the fbt live speakers I'm going crazy in the eq section trying various settings the last test I do is to connect it to a mixer strange thing, it's not just mine, I went to the dealer, we tried two keyboards, both the same thing, so some are active or defective in the latest update. I wanted to know if any of you have this problem or something needs to be deactivated. In the meantime, I ordered. the new speaker system from pa5x just to try thanks
Joined: 22 Mar 2007 Posts: 977 Location: from a mile high to the the AZ desert
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2024 6:05 pm Post subject:
My immediate thought is an issue with the speakers or the room in which you are listening, since your headphones not display the harshness in the high frequencies. The Yamaha speakers are a good mid-priced speaker option; but are known to have very good highs. Maybe your volume, roomwise, is too loud to compensate for the lack of low and midrange listening volume. Maybe the volumes for low and mid were reduced to help alleviate standing wave issues in your room? Just spitballing here for you. _________________ http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=807494
My immediate thought is an issue with the speakers or the room in which you are listening, since your headphones not display the harshness in the high frequencies. The Yamaha speakers are a good mid-priced speaker option; but are known to have very good highs. Maybe your volume, roomwise, is too loud to compensate for the lack of low and midrange listening volume. Maybe the volumes for low and mid were reduced to help alleviate standing wave issues in your room? Just spitballing here for you.
and a recording studio both the genos 2 and nord piano connecting the same speakers work very well I only get this defect with the piano sounds on the highest notes of the pa5x the low notes go a little better the styles the midi songs and the other instruments They work perfectly only with piano sounds. I've tried every way. Thanks
I also tried with the focal shape 65 with fbt live by connecting it to the mixer and finally via midi by connecting it to the genos 2 the piano sounds are metallic except in headphones during the editing phase you modify them and they sound good but if you want to play live yes they feel metallic there is no solution except waiting for some updates hoping they will solve it if they don't I'll put it up for sale
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:56 pm Post subject:
It's obvious that a nearfield monitor setup will sound different than a headphone setup.
When using headphones you are basically using a binaural mic setup for your piano. So simplified, microphones of the piano are near your ear canal. There are no 'unwanted' frequencies involved then.
Then you switch to your hs8 nearfield monitors, when using nearfield monitors you need to set them up correctly in your room, so follow the rules in the manual, for the HS8 this is a triangle setup (evenly spaced between the monitors and you) and at least 1.5 meters from the wall. Your description of a metallic sound looks like you have resonance frequency reflection problems in your room.
And remember, only the sweet spot for nearfield monitors (which is a rather small part of your room) gives the correct sound, everything outside that sweet spot will sound really bad.
That is the first step, then your room get's in place, all sounds reflects on different surfaces and will influence the sound, so you can do do some acoustic room treatment to get rid of the bouncing frequencies that will mask your sound.
Also the HS8 has switches at the back of the monitors, for instance you can set a switch that lowers the high end with -2db. You have to set this up correctly.
Also keep in mind that the HS8 has a flat frequency response, most headphones have a boost in the low end, so you need to match the frequency response of your hs8 to your wanted sound with an equalizer that compensates for your wanted sound from that headphone.
I've simplified the above a lot, this is a really complex area if you want to go in to getting a certain sound in a certain room, there are plugins that can help with that by doing an audio sweep and then you can select the headphone of your choice and it will modify the EQ profile.
so to conclude:
A hardware monitor setup will never sound the same as a headphone setup unless you invest in your knowledge how to change all this. There is a lot of information on the internet on this subject.
Search on things like:
- binaural recording setup
- Masking (EQ theory)
- Standing waves and EQ Theory
- Nearfield Monitor setups
- Flat Frequency response
It's obvious that a nearfield monitor setup will sound different than a headphone setup.
When using headphones you are basically using a binaural mic setup for your piano. So simplified, microphones of the piano are near your ear canal. There are no 'unwanted' frequencies involved then.
Then you switch to your hs8 nearfield monitors, when using nearfield monitors you need to set them up correctly in your room, so follow the rules in the manual, for the HS8 this is a triangle setup (evenly spaced between the monitors and you) and at least 1.5 meters from the wall. Your description of a metallic sound looks like you have resonance frequency reflection problems in your room.
And remember, only the sweet spot for nearfield monitors (which is a rather small part of your room) gives the correct sound, everything outside that sweet spot will sound really bad.
That is the first step, then your room get's in place, all sounds reflects on different surfaces and will influence the sound, so you can do do some acoustic room treatment to get rid of the bouncing frequencies that will mask your sound.
Also the HS8 has switches at the back of the monitors, for instance you can set a switch that lowers the high end with -2db. You have to set this up correctly.
Also keep in mind that the HS8 has a flat frequency response, most headphones have a boost in the low end, so you need to match the frequency response of your hs8 to your wanted sound with an equalizer that compensates for your wanted sound from that headphone.
I've simplified the above a lot, this is a really complex area if you want to go in to getting a certain sound in a certain room, there are plugins that can help with that by doing an audio sweep and then you can select the headphone of your choice and it will modify the EQ profile.
so to conclude:
A hardware monitor setup will never sound the same as a headphone setup unless you invest in your knowledge how to change all this. There is a lot of information on the internet on this subject.
Search on things like:
- binaural recording setup
- Masking (EQ theory)
- Standing waves and EQ Theory
- Nearfield Monitor setups
- Flat Frequency response
Hi, thank you for the answer, it's only possible with pa5x, do I have this problem?
furthermore, as I mentioned above, even with live speakers, that is, if you play normally on a stage, you plug in the system and put on the piano, especially the Austrian grand, and start to lower the pedal, the sound becomes metallic, especially on the higher notes
as mentioned above both with north floor 5
and with genos2 I don't have these problems sorry if I contradict you I've had a recording studio for 32 years I have very good sound engineers and qualified people in this field I didn't understand if the problem concerns the keyboard or the pedal I ordered an original Korg pedal for Thank you for clearing this doubt too
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:56 pm Post subject:
max124 wrote:
Hi, thank you for the answer, it's only possible with pa5x, do I have this problem?
furthermore, as I mentioned above, even with live speakers, that is, if you play normally on a stage, you plug in the system and put on the piano, especially the Austrian grand, and start to lower the pedal, the sound becomes metallic, especially on the higher notes
as mentioned above both with north floor 5
and with genos2 I don't have these problems sorry if I contradict you I've had a recording studio for 32 years I have very good sound engineers and qualified people in this field I didn't understand if the problem concerns the keyboard or the pedal I ordered an original Korg pedal for Thank you for clearing this doubt too
you didn't contradict me, I didn't know that you had so much experience and such experienced people around you.
That is also the reason I don't think anyone here can answer your questions if you and your Mix and Sound engineers have no clue what is happening.
You mention the Austrian piano, when I did a spectrum analysis on that sound I saw that some of the samples had the sympathetic resonance of the soundboard sampled in some of the samples. I've corrected that for myself in my own presets on the pa5x because I didn't like that, but that probably isn't the issue at your place because these kind of things should be easy for you guys to notice. Also piano concepts like the sustained notes from G5 and higher should be familiar, so that isn't also the case in your situation.
The only thing that is pa5x specific is that the austrian piano keyboard set has 2 sounds enabled by default, if you mute the second upper sound, then you remove the effects on the piano like damper and some resonance tricks. Maybe that is what you are hearing?
Hi, thank you for the answer, it's only possible with pa5x, do I have this problem?
furthermore, as I mentioned above, even with live speakers, that is, if you play normally on a stage, you plug in the system and put on the piano, especially the Austrian grand, and start to lower the pedal, the sound becomes metallic, especially on the higher notes
as mentioned above both with north floor 5
and with genos2 I don't have these problems sorry if I contradict you I've had a recording studio for 32 years I have very good sound engineers and qualified people in this field I didn't understand if the problem concerns the keyboard or the pedal I ordered an original Korg pedal for Thank you for clearing this doubt too
you didn't contradict me, I didn't know that you had so much experience and such experienced people around you.
That is also the reason I don't think anyone here can answer your questions if you and your Mix and Sound engineers have no clue what is happening.
You mention the Austrian piano, when I did a spectrum analysis on that sound I saw that some of the samples had the sympathetic resonance of the soundboard sampled in some of the samples. I've corrected that for myself in my own presets on the pa5x because I didn't like that, but that probably isn't the issue at your place because these kind of things should be easy for you guys to notice. Also piano concepts like the sustained notes from G5 and higher should be familiar, so that isn't also the case in your situation.
The only thing that is pa5x specific is that the austrian piano keyboard set has 2 sounds enabled by default, if you mute the second upper sound, then you remove the effects on the piano like damper and some resonance tricks. Maybe that is what you are hearing?
yes we have a lot of experience but you have to stay up to date with new products and I recently changed equipment to keep up with the times so for us it's all new I also tried to remove the effects and the rest is the first thing we did if we manage to make it play perfectly it saves us a lot of work as it is a new product for us purchased a few days ago even by reading the entire manual you can't understand why these sounds only like pianos on some notes it throws off the resonance of the metal I thought that there is too much effect on the pedal if you play without pedal it is perfect I asked on the forum to exclude some defects of my keyboard
Thank you
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 11:30 pm Post subject:
max124 wrote:
yes we have a lot of experience but you have to stay up to date with new products and I recently changed equipment to keep up with the times so for us it's all new I also tried to remove the effects and the rest is the first thing we did if we manage to make it play perfectly it saves us a lot of work as it is a new product for us purchased a few days ago even by reading the entire manual you can't understand why these sounds only like pianos on some notes it throws off the resonance of the metal I thought that there is too much effect on the pedal if you play without pedal it is perfect I asked on the forum to exclude some defects of my keyboard
Thank you
did you watch my piano tutorial? There I explain a few of the piano concepts specific for the pa5x. Especially the part from 00:00 - 3:00 is important for you, also the creation of your own keyboard sets is explained when you skip to 16:15
the first part are just demos of my own presets based on the factory pianos. So if these are sounding ok on your HS8, then just let your sound engineers do their magic work with some of the things I show in the part after 16:15
Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 1691 Location: NSW , Australia
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:38 am Post subject:
Hi, I don’t really know anything much about speaker setups but I did try the following.
I actually have my PA5x 88 note setup with my old paas speaker system. My piano’s sound fine.
I decided to try connecting my old Yamaha monitors to the PA5x to see if they had a harsh ring. They’re really old and don’t sound that brilliant in the first place , but they sounded ok..
What I did notice though,
I turned “off “the paas speakers, in audio video setting so that I only got sound thru Yamaha monitors.
Then under Waves setting I turned “off “ Paas as default.
Don’t know if it’s my imagination, but my Yamaha’s sounded slightly worse when Paas default setting was set to “on” instead of “off”.
Might be worth checking that setting, just in case, though probably may not make any difference. Good luck, hope you sort it out. _________________ best wishes
Rikki
HOBBYIST
PA5X 88 note
Wavesart CFX 9ft Grand Piano 🥰
Wavesart Japanese Grand Piano
why these sounds only like pianos on some notes it throws off the resonance of the metal I thought that there is too much effect
on the pedal if you play without pedal it is perfect I asked on the forum to exclude some defects of my keyboard
Thank you
In fact factory Grand pianos have been sampled with very closed microphone distance (totally wrong IMO) and many artifacts and ringing of notes are enhanced.
Also for demonstrating reason , they have overdose mixing of resonance and overtone sympathetic resonance that must be edited and reduce them by -9db.
Also when you're using high power Amp system , all those odd frequencies and sonic artifacts will be noticeable compared to headphones. _________________ Music Conductor - Sound Engineer & Developer - Automotive SMPS/RF R&D - Electronics Engineer PaSeries Demos - WavesArt.eu - KorgPa.gr <> Facebook Keyboards : Steinway-D, Kronos X, Pa5X 76, Pa4X 76, Montage M7 , Roland-XV88, Emu3,Emax II,Synclavier II,Yamaha DX Series, ΟΒ-8V
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:31 am Post subject:
AntonySharmman wrote:
In fact factory Grand pianos have been sampled with very closed microphone distance (totally wrong IMO) and many artifacts and ringing of notes are enhanced.
Also for demonstrating reason , they have overdose mixing of resonance and overtone sympathetic resonance that must be edited and reduce them by -9db.
Also when you're using high power Amp system , all those odd frequencies and sonic artifacts will be noticeable compared to headphones.
This is correct, that's why in my video I suggest the dry version (where these resonance samples are not used), this is the simplest solution for most users if they want to get rid of it.
your -9db suggestion is great, I used that too in my presets (although I slightly used different db settings for different samples), but since he has a professional sound design team in his studio they will have no problem reducing that samples to set it up entirely to his wishes.
And Anthony, just curious, do you have experience with pianoteq? If not I highly suggest to check out the pro version, you can model your piano sound per note in there on spectrum profile level (and 100 of parameters per note more). I think it will be something you really like with your experience.
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