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Adding After Touch to RH3 88 & Nautilus

 
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yoshi88
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:01 pm    Post subject: Adding After Touch to RH3 88 & Nautilus Reply with quote

The KRONOS RH3 88 had an after touch strip when it was in the Kronos series.
Can an aftertouch strip be seen by the mainboard of the Nautilus if one was available on the keybed?
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voip
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Kronos, in addition to the aftertouch pressure strip, there is a Pressure Circuit Board.

If adding aftertouch was a relatively simple matter of fitting a Pressure Circuit Board, it might have been expected to see it being offered as an upgrade for the Nautilus. Since this is not the case, it is likely that the necessary interfacing circuitry may not be present in the Nautilus.

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yoshi88
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:
In the Kronos, in addition to the aftertouch pressure strip, there is a Pressure Circuit Board.

If adding aftertouch was a relatively simple matter of fitting a Pressure Circuit Board, it might have been expected to see it being offered as an upgrade for the Nautilus. Since this is not the case, it is likely that the necessary interfacing circuitry may not be present in the Nautilus.

.


If the aftertouch strip and the accompanying pressure, gain & offset circuit board were to be included, I do not think the mainboard and firmware can"see" the aftertouch.
Id do not think there was a planned connection that was designed to accommodate aftertouch data!

Which begs the question, will the Nautilus respond to received aftertouch midi data win slave mode?
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voip
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the MIDI Implementation Chart at the end of the Owner's Guide, Aftertouch messages are both transmitted and received by the Nautilus. The Nautilus doesn't produce Aftertouch in response to key pressure, but it can transmit these messages via the Sequencer, using Track Edit operations to insert Aftertouch messages. It will respond to Aftertouch messages via incoming MIDI data.

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yoshi88
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although This board wasn't design to generate aftertouch data, it is good that it will respond to received MIDI aftertouch data!!! Can the aftertouch data be assigned to a CC#?
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KK
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of MIDI data, channel/monophonic pressure/AT is of course different from key/poly pressure/AT.

The few controllers who can transmit poly AT often use their own dedicated MIDI implementation to transmit it. Usually, poly AT will be automatically recognized by any decent external MIDI destination or sound source. In a rare case a MIDI receiving device would not recognize the poly AT data from a controller, you could always insert a MIDI mapper interface in between, for example the MIDI-OX freeware.

In most cases, it is as simple as connecting both entities with a MIDI cable and that's it. I have created several Kronos programs which sound beautiful when used on a polyphonic AT controller. I am used to poly AT keyboards since a long time and it is very useful to add realism playing string ensembles, brass, Mellotron sounds, combis with several splits, etc.
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yoshi88
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KK wrote:
In terms of MIDI data, channel/monophonic pressure/AT is of course different from key/poly pressure/AT.

The few controllers who can transmit poly AT often use their own dedicated MIDI implementation to transmit it. Usually, poly AT will be automatically recognized by any decent external MIDI destination or sound source. In a rare case a MIDI receiving device would not recognize the poly AT data from a controller, you could always insert a MIDI mapper interface in between, for example the MIDI-OX freeware.

In most cases, it is as simple as connecting both entities with a MIDI cable and that's it. I have created several Kronos programs which sound beautiful when used on a polyphonic AT controller. I am used to poly AT keyboards since a long time and it is very useful to add realism playing string ensembles, brass, Mellotron sounds, combis with several splits, etc.



Can you elaborate on the differences between poly and mono AT?
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KK
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoshi88 wrote:
Can you elaborate on the differences between poly and mono AT?

Sure. Very few controllers can transmit poly AT because it involves more costly hardware and not many players actually need/want it, so I guess it's not an economically viable choice.

Almost every keyboard/synth nowadays only transmit mono AT. So let's say you choose a program in which the AT is set to start a vibrato effect. Then you hold a chord in the left hand (LH) while playing a melody with your right hand (RH). If you push harder on a key using a RH finger, not only this note will get vibrato as programmed, but also all the LH held keys as well.

On the other hand, if you use the poly AT option on a great controller such as a Kurzweil MIDIboard or a Yamaha CS-80, only the keys which will be pushed harder while held will initiate vibrato and in the percentage you want depending on their individual applied pressure. Or will play louder or get higher or lower in pitch and so on, depending what you decided the poly AT to do in a given program or combi.

In short, mono AT is good for things like split combis with, for example, a piano sound in the LH with AT off and some solo sound in the RH with AT on. But with poly AT you can bring out anything you want in complex chords and program totally different things to be triggered by AT in split combis, etc.
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voip
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the Nautilus, the MIDI message strings for Channel Aftertouch take the form:

Dn, vv - where n = channel and vv = value


Whilst for Polyphonic Aftertouch, the format is:

An, kk, vv - where n = channel, kk = note number and vv = value

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yoshi88
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voip wrote:
For the Nautilus, the MIDI message strings for Channel Aftertouch take the form:

Dn, vv - where n = channel and vv = value


Whilst for Polyphonic Aftertouch, the format is:

An, kk, vv - where n = channel, kk = note number and vv = value

.


Thank you for this summary. I now understand why it is considered a premium expense for manufacturers to add PolyAT to their design and production costs.

The older CS 80 ( Yamaha ) and the Roland A80 did have it on their keybeds. There are a number today who do offer it but none it seems in a fully weighted 88 note version.. Hydrasynth has it in their 49 note board.
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janrhansen
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can get relative cost efficient Keyboards with Poly aftertouch today. There just isn't many of them.

Best value today is the ASM Hydrasynth Explorer which is a 37 mini key version of the original Hydrasynth.

Beside the Poly aftertouch which is amazing on a mini key Synth its a darn nice 8 voice wavemorphing Synth in itself. Been circling around this a bit to add it to my Kronos2 73 for solo lead parts which is a hell lot easier to play fast than on an RH3 keybed.

The Explorer model is half the price than the original Hydra synth and exactly the same if you can live with the mini keys and don't need the ribbon controller. You still have the C/V gate connections.

ON the aftertouch thing, There have been mods to the Kronos to adjust the aftertouch circuity to have a manual variable aftertouch. But it already have it build in, so wether its possible to add it to the Nautilus is questionable. Not sure Korg went with the standard PC solution with the Nautilus so that its possible to add an aftertouch circuit. Technically the keybed is the same as the Kronos according to Korg just without the aftertouch strip and the aftertouch circuit is extremely easy for a tech person to create. it only uses a single opamp and a handfull of components to construct. So it's really in the very low end of cost they save by ommitting to put in the instrument. Beyond me why they chose not to put it in. I would really think it IS possible to add if you know enough of how the instrument work technically inside. Every keyboard have kind of a "scanner board" that takes input from the keybed and translates it to midi informations and the aftertouch circuit just adds the extra aftertouch informations for channel aftertouch which is very simple. Everything can be done if you know how to do it Smile

The Hydrasynth is actually the closest most of us will ever get to ever play a CS-80 together with the new Cherry Audio GX-80 sofsynth if you choose the Deluxe version Cool
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chelsea4023
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I have a Nautilus 88 which I'm very happy with. Could I buy a midi controller keyboard with aftertouch and play sounds from the Nautilus from it utilising the aftertouch feature. I love the piano, strings, pad sounds, quite a few of the E. pianos but I'm a little disappointed with the guitars (acoustic & electric) and I'm guessing aftertouch could improve these. I would be looking at a 61 note maximum so any suggestions. Not really looking for extra sounds though.
Chris
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