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Disabling EG Reset in AL1 for Legato Playing

 
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 12:49 pm    Post subject: Disabling EG Reset in AL1 for Legato Playing Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I’m trying to recreate some simple sounds from my Microkorg and Moog Subsequent 37 in AL1, but was having some problems recreating some of them. After some digging, I realised it was due to the different handling of monophonic legato playing between the instruments.

Both the Microkorg and Moog have the ability to disable envelope resets when playing legato, whilst still allowing the new envelope to sound when playing g a new note. It does this by stating the new note’s EG at the old note’s EG value, which can lead to some nicely expressive playing. For example, the brass synth sound at the end of “Shine on You Crazy Diamond” uses this playing style on a Moog Model D.

On the Microkorg, this option is called “EG Reset” and is available when voice mode is set to “Mono”, trigger mode is set to “Multi” (eg legato).

However, I can’t see how to obtain this well-established effect on the mighty AL1. Setting Mono Legato doesn’t start the EGs again - it just changes the pitch and preserves the EGs of the previous notes. Setting straight Mono causes the EGs to be reset all the time.

Is there a way in the Kronos to achieve this? Have a mini voice that, when playing a new note legato, starts a new envelope but starting at the previous value? Surely there has to be!

Thanks!

Lee
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1367
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a bit more digging, seems the behaviour I am looking for has nothing to do with legato mode, but rather the behaviour of the envelopes. Seems to be a common bugbear with Korg synths - both analogue and digital - in particular.

There’s a good video demonstrating the problem I’m facing here - I want the AL1 engine to behave like the SH101 in the video, not the Korg Minilogue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF2F6MhWIm4

On my Moog I have the option to enable or disable Envelope Reset, which is different to how Korg use the term. On the Moog, I can (in mono mode) play and release a note with a long attack and release, and if I play a new note, the envelope ramps up from the previous note’s last envelope value. If I enable “Envelope Reset” on the Moog, it behaves like the Kronos does.

Surely there must be a way to make this work, because it seems like an elemental part of how an analogue synth should behave!
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One
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Broadwave
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Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 1118
Location: Manchester UK

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2022 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know exactly what you mean, unfortunately it seems many analogue modeling synths do the same thing in mono mode - it's infuriating.

I'm afraid it's just the way the AL-1 envelopes work.

I have two synths that *do* behave correctly in mono mode, that's the Summit and Hydrasynth. The Fantom, like the Kronos retriggers on key down.

Another thing that annoys me is the start phase of VA oscillators... it's either locked to 0 degrees which sounds awful, or you need somekind of "random" phase start to emulate it.
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KK
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Joined: 13 Oct 2016
Posts: 1416

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, the Kronos doesn't behave exactly like a dedicated synthesizer because its versatility also implies it must also closely emulate the behaviour of pianos, organs, sample based instruments, etc.

To avoid retriggering mono synth envelopes on my Kronos, I simply play the keys with a standard legato technique (like what is needed in classical pieces on a real acoustic piano). The Kronos keyboard is not the easiest for this particular task, but I've found it's certainly possible to avoid retriggering in most cases.

Note that it could be possible to solve this using some external software or MIDI mapper (for example delaying MIDI note off events and so on), but it would not be practical.
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1367
Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2022 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both for your responses and for confirming my fears.

Unfortunately playing legato with “mono legato” activated still isn’t the same effect - mono legato doesn’t retriever the envelope at all, which means that if you have an attack swell, it is ignored - the only thing that changes is the pitch.

Whilst it’s true that the Kronos can emulate a wide variety of sound types, the AL1 is specifically designed to emulate analogue synths. Even the MS20 model is wrong - the MS20 on the Kronos doesn’t behave like a real-world MS20 in that regard.

I’m just surprised as the Microkorg has the option to either reset envelopes or not, so one would assume that a vastly more expensive Kronos would have the option. It also strikes me as an oversight when they have things like different envelope curve options, but no option around envelope retriggering.

Unfortunately this envelope behaviour is really integral to playing mono synths, as I’ve discovered. I’ve used Korg synths for years, and so assumed it was normal. It was only once I got analogue synths and the Microkorg that I discovered mono synths could actually be useful because the envelope behaviour on the Kronos and Triton seemed so off. I’d alsways assumed that I had just missed something, but evidently not!

Well, I’m pleased I have an ARP, Moog and Microkorg for such duties (and actually, on the whole, prefer the Microkorg to the AL1 - which makes no sense).
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One
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