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Next arranger model - NEW DESIGN vs UPGRADE
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Blazenko
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus is of course absolutely right.

Korg will of course be careful not to create any competition of its own and will most likely try to keep the difference between keyboard division <> synthesizer/workstation division as far as possible.

Probably also unfortunately in terms of sound...
I'm guessing there won't be a "Kronos engine" in a Pa5X.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blazenko wrote:
Bachus is of course absolutely right.

Korg will of course be careful not to create any competition of its own and will most likely try to keep the difference between keyboard division <> synthesizer/workstation division as far as possible.

Probably also unfortunately in terms of sound...
I'm guessing there won't be a "Kronos engine" in a Pa5X.


No, if i am honest to myself, i know there will not be a kronos engine inside…

At best the architecture is addapted so, we can load samplesets from the HD1 engine in Nautilus and kronos… with just as much room for samples..

I also hope some other things will make their way to the pa5x, like different oscilator types (va, wavetable FM) more filters and options to use more then one filter in a sound..

But we will have to see, if this happens..


As said above, if they want to sell 61 and 76 key versions, there needs to be some leap forward.. or people will just stick to pa4x



In general i have no clue how much knowledge Korg Italy has of the engine inside the pa4x, as i think it was an old engine developed by Korg Japan… if there is to much spaghetti code (like in the kronos) we might never see much changes..


Another option is adding engines from Korg gadget.. the gadget seems quite good for porting to other systems, as its allready running the nintendo switch..
I think this would be a huge step for the Pa series..
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I think Korg are idiots…

Strong words? Maybe. But all this talk about only a subset of arranger players wanting or needing cutting edge work/synthstation features is true. We are an aging demographic, anyone SERIOUSLY into EDM or modern dance music is already on a completely different path, equipment wise.

So, what are the odds we’ll ever get a serious arranger/synthstation crossover? Zero.

Yes, I agree that the underlying Nautilus engine, with its vastly better effects architecture and snappier modern CPU is needed to power the next generation of arrangers, and if they throw in the modeled analog polysynth engine on top of what we already use (a good sampler engine and a B3 engine) that’s going to be good enough for probably 90% of the faithful.

But if Korg want to sell a LOT more keyboards, the way isn’t to combine everything from a PA4X and a Nautilus. A) they’ll never do that, and b) it would be too expensive. Option C is, just make the new PA5 MUCH better as a master controller, allow definable sliders knobs etc., and make storable external control templates.

Then design templates to easily fully control a Nautilus, completely synced to the arranger engine. Heck, go the extra mile, and design control screens from within the arranger OS for a bunch of useful Nautilus functions. Now, for the arranger players that DO want some sophisticated synthstation stuff along with their arranger playing, they can go out and buy a Nautilus. Two sales!

For the fairly basic cost of coding some decent controller mapping. That’s probably the easiest coding job on the planet.

I fail to understand how Korg can have missed this simple (and profitable) trick… Maybe the Italian team isn’t that keen on trying to sell keyboards they don’t design. But Korg Japan could easily tell them to do this. All I can say is, if I were Korg Japan, and wanted to open up a new market for my synthstation line, I’d move Heaven and earth to make sure my arrangers and workstation/synthstation stuff worked together seamlessly. I’d provide control templates to make it so easy, even old codgers like us could do it!

We got money, we got time. What we don’t often have is the formidable technical skills necessary at the moment to use third party equipment to make it easier to combine both keyboards into one cohesive instrument. Were Korg to do make that a no brainer for even fairly technophobic players, I predict their Nautilus sales would soar.

And we wouldn’t have this eternal wishlist for synthstation features we’re pretty unlikely to ever get.

Wise up, Korg.
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Kirg do not release a new arranger soon then I will buy a new Laptop and the vArrager software are use that for my home playing.

It would be way cheaper than a 5X plus I could get up and running jow not next year
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biggles wrote:
If Kirg do not release a new arranger soon then I will buy a new Laptop and the vArrager software are use that for my home playing.

It would be way cheaper than a 5X plus I could get up and running jow not next year


V-arranger is not a replacement for a totl arranger.
Having no dedicated hardware interface realy feels unenjoyable to me.
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usaraiya
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is what I think will happen for the release of PA5X, for whatever it is worth and IMHO:

The demographics show that the older population sales for an arranger drives the market, so, Korg will upgrade the PA4X arranger with some new features which will appeal to the seniors, and call it PA5X and sell it, just like what Yamaha did to Tyros 5, upgraded it to Genos with some great improvements but Not a new architecture, sold it to the seniors, who LOVE it, and everyone is happy.

Do you think KORG will change their focus to anything else that is unproven? I don't think so. So expect a new and improved PA4X, that's the BEST we can expect, and live with it, OR stay with the PA4X. Nothing wrong with either choice, except money, which is what the seniors usually have more in comparison to the younger generation, and will continue to drive the arranger market.

Uday
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D575
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite all the very interesting viewpoints and discussion expressed here and around this forum (nothing wrong with good healthy discussion) ultimately my next purchase will importantly be based on what this new platform can do rather than what it cannot Smile
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D575 wrote:
Despite all the very interesting viewpoints and discussion expressed here and around this forum (nothing wrong with good healthy discussion) ultimately my next purchase will importantly be based on what this new platform can do rather than what it cannot Smile


True..

Butif there is a high quallity 88 key Fatar keybed with aftertouch, i am pretty much sold..

i hope to see all of the kronos piano’s, and compatibility with the sample expansions from Kronos.. which should be possible with a little engine upgrade and an import feature…. If they can add enough Ram and a fast IO to an SSD, the kronos sample streaming will make this a hugely expandable arranger..

The current weakest point of the pa4x compared to my Genos, is the amount of DSP/insert effects.. Genos has 28, and very flexible, if i want to assign 12 of them to a single sound, it can be done..


So basically , all it meeds next to the new outside look is a very strong processor upgrade with an architecture that allows for connecting a fast SSD.

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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that it’s dangerous for Korg to just assume that they can trot out another Triton hardware based arranger and everyone with a PA4X will just happily buy it.

The fact of the matter is, what do you think the aging hardware of the current line is truly capable of? It has been refined over three or four iterations so far, and it’s pretty obvious it’s end of line as far as effects, polyphony and things like data pipeline speeds are concerned, let alone running things like analog synth emulation etc..

So, sure, there’s a strong possibility we’ll see some pretty new bells and whistles, but raw engine power isn’t likely to be upped significantly if Korg are still leveraging the old hardware and CPU. Let’s face it, if it could be done, it already would have been done….

So, rather than offer current PA4X owners an absolute no brainer decision to upgrade to something utterly generationally advanced over their current arranger, current owners are faced with a decision whether to get something only incrementally better than they already have. That’s a much harder decision. One I’m sure will generate less sales.

But this is what, to be quite frank, Korg have done going incrementally from each of the last two models to the next. You can see from how busy the PA3X forum is, there are a LOT of people that didn’t think the upgrade from 3 to 4 was worth it. Another Triton engine based new model will assure that they have plenty of company…

Sooner or later, Korg HAVE to leverage the Nautilus/Kronos hardware. Amazingly, they’ve waited ten years. Time to catch up.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korghelper wrote:
I think that it’s dangerous for Korg to just assume that they can trot out another Triton hardware based arranger and everyone with a PA4X will just happily buy it.


But the fact that its taking them 7 years to make an update to the pa4x might indicate that they are stepping up to modern hardware?
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Asena
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like i wrote earlier, If there is NO Better handling of DATA TRANSFER/LOADING TIME Etc, And If there is no better SF2 IMPORT like K2, If there is no god resolution on the Screen, If there is no new ROM SOUNDS, I Mean NEW not token from Just 3X/4X/Pa2X etc, If there is only one INSERT FX, If there is ONLY 15K Samples, If there is nothing they offer for making USER SOUNDS From PC/MAC, If there is limitation for anything, I,m OUT!
I will hang on with my 4X and My Laptop/MAC.
Because 7 years old 4x, and the updated 4X with some minor things is like a joke for me.

Look at the other Brands, they are in time, FAST, And Smart.
There is still Buggs in 4X that they did not fixed, And now they are making a new Unit again, before they even fix the problems with the 4X,

Sorry but i,m not that rich.
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Blazenko
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asena wrote:
Like i wrote earlier, If there is NO Better handling of DATA TRANSFER/LOADING TIME Etc, And If there is no better SF2 IMPORT like K2, If there is no god resolution on the Screen, If there is no new ROM SOUNDS, I Mean NEW not token from Just 3X/4X/Pa2X etc, If there is only one INSERT FX, If there is ONLY 15K Samples, If there is nothing they offer for making USER SOUNDS From PC/MAC, If there is limitation for anything, I,m OUT!
I will hang on with my 4X and My Laptop/MAC.
Because 7 years old 4x, and the updated 4X with some minor things is like a joke for me.

Look at the other Brands, they are in time, FAST, And Smart.
There is still Buggs in 4X that they did not fixed, And now they are making a new Unit again, before they even fix the problems with the 4X,

Sorry but i,m not that rich.


+1
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asena wrote:
Like i wrote earlier, If there is NO Better handling of DATA TRANSFER/LOADING TIME Etc, And If there is no better SF2 IMPORT like K2, If there is no god resolution on the Screen, If there is no new ROM SOUNDS, I Mean NEW not token from Just 3X/4X/Pa2X etc, If there is only one INSERT FX, If there is ONLY 15K Samples, If there is nothing they offer for making USER SOUNDS From PC/MAC, If there is limitation for anything, I,m OUT!
I will hang on with my 4X and My Laptop/MAC.
Because 7 years old 4x, and the updated 4X with some minor things is like a joke for me.

Look at the other Brands, they are in time, FAST, And Smart.
There is still Buggs in 4X that they did not fixed, And now they are making a new Unit again, before they even fix the problems with the 4X,

Sorry but i,m not that rich.


Don’t you think Korg Italy realizes this and thats the reason we haven’t seen an update in 7 years compared to the usual 5 years..

Moving to other hardware takes time..
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Blazenko
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
Asena wrote:
Like i wrote earlier, If there is NO Better handling of DATA TRANSFER/LOADING TIME Etc, And If there is no better SF2 IMPORT like K2, If there is no god resolution on the Screen, If there is no new ROM SOUNDS, I Mean NEW not token from Just 3X/4X/Pa2X etc, If there is only one INSERT FX, If there is ONLY 15K Samples, If there is nothing they offer for making USER SOUNDS From PC/MAC, If there is limitation for anything, I,m OUT!
I will hang on with my 4X and My Laptop/MAC.
Because 7 years old 4x, and the updated 4X with some minor things is like a joke for me.

Look at the other Brands, they are in time, FAST, And Smart.
There is still Buggs in 4X that they did not fixed, And now they are making a new Unit again, before they even fix the problems with the 4X,

Sorry but i,m not that rich.


Don’t you think Korg Italy realizes this and thats the reason we haven’t seen an update in 7 years compared to the usual 5 years..

Moving to other hardware takes time..


Sure, a change to a new hardware would be great and actually to be expected.

Still, he's right when he says that Korg should have fixed the well-known old bugs as well.

Not fixing the bugs in the operating system is bad style.
Especially when you've had seven years.
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

usaraiya wrote:
Here is what I think will happen for the release of PA5X, for whatever it is worth and IMHO:

The demographics show that the older population sales for an arranger drives the market, so, Korg will upgrade the PA4X arranger with some new features which will appeal to the seniors, and call it PA5X and sell it, just like what Yamaha did to Tyros 5, upgraded it to Genos with some great improvements but Not a new architecture, sold it to the seniors, who LOVE it, and everyone is happy.

Do you think KORG will change their focus to anything else that is unproven? I don't think so. So expect a new and improved PA4X, that's the BEST we can expect, and live with it, OR stay with the PA4X. Nothing wrong with either choice, except money, which is what the seniors usually have more in comparison to the younger generation, and will continue to drive the arranger market.

Uday
Smile


I am a senior and it would be a cold day in hell before I spend my retirement cash on a very old design of keyboard, irrespective of how good yet still bug ridden a 4X still is after seven years.
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