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Innovations for arrangers
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:05 am    Post subject: Innovations for arrangers Reply with quote

With the pa5x being released somewhere this year, its time to discuss the state of current totl arrangers.

Korg seems like the brand that can push arrangers forward.

When i look at the general lists for improvement, most people don’t get much further then some Ui improvements but they all seem content with the current structure..

While there is so much room to push the Pa5x one level up, maybe even two..

One of the things that comes to mind where it is improving of the style engine is a feature ketron is introducing, its called launchpad and when done right it can be a revolution for pro arranger players..

Next to that there is the part called daw integration(which goes much further then daw controll). The daw becomes part of the keyboard.. lets take korgs own gadget app as example.. imagine you could use that app for editing midi notes inside a Pa5x or other arranger? But also control the sequencer of the gadget, or control the gadgets themselves like you would control local sounds(this requires a good audio over usb interface that lives up to the standard so it requires no extra drivers) other features they could add is reading sheetmusic and cheatsheets, or controlling VST/AU trough Gadgets host. I think Korg is sitting on the golden egg if they can integrate Gadget not just with pa series, but with all their products..

Another sad thing is how they stick to the voice architecture with 3 voices right and one voice left. Espescially when you like layering and splitting you can quickly run thin..kronos and nautilus have 16 voices to spread over the keyboard. Often i used the kronos to control the pa4x just assigning one channel (midi) to control chord changes. A way to bring more voices to pa4x is to do what roland did in the jupiter 80. Still 4 voices and 3 splitpoints to set on or of. But each of these 4 voices consisted out of 4 sounds.. having a structure like this would also allow to create ensemble voices like in the genos, these are actually harmonies that use more then 1 sound, for each of the 4 voices.

I do realise a feature like this would mean the hardware (currently thy are using a 15 year or more old processor) needs a huge update..

Next to that there isnonboard soundengine(s). Now with the gadget integration, this would be less eminent, but what they could do is add teh engines from nautilus to the Pa5x. But what they also could do is expand the current engine, so an oscilator is not just a single sample playback. But they could add more types of oscilator. Think a VA oscilators, wavetable oscilators, fm oscilators with an option to add a seperate block to each oscilator which could be a filter or another dsp effect..

Offcourse we need more effects.. in the pro audio world, you want atleast 2 effects/voice..

And then there is things like onboard arpeggiators and step sequencers but i will leave some room for your input. What innovations (which is much more then simple changes as the expand or add new features instead of just improving excisting features) would you like to see in the next generation of arrangers?
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Asena
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Innovations for arrangers Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
With the pa5x being released somewhere this year, its time to discuss the state of current totl arrangers.

Korg seems like the brand that can push arrangers forward.

When i look at the general lists for improvement, most people don’t get much further then some Ui improvements but they all seem content with the current structure..

While there is so much room to push the Pa5x one level up, maybe even two..

One of the things that comes to mind where it is improving of the style engine is a feature ketron is introducing, its called launchpad and when done right it can be a revolution for pro arranger players..

Next to that there is the part called daw integration(which goes much further then daw controll). The daw becomes part of the keyboard.. lets take korgs own gadget app as example.. imagine you could use that app for editing midi notes inside a Pa5x or other arranger? But also control the sequencer of the gadget, or control the gadgets themselves like you would control local sounds(this requires a good audio over usb interface that lives up to the standard so it requires no extra drivers) other features they could add is reading sheetmusic and cheatsheets, or controlling VST/AU trough Gadgets host. I think Korg is sitting on the golden egg if they can integrate Gadget not just with pa series, but with all their products..

Another sad thing is how they stick to the voice architecture with 3 voices right and one voice left. Espescially when you like layering and splitting you can quickly run thin..kronos and nautilus have 16 voices to spread over the keyboard. Often i used the kronos to control the pa4x just assigning one channel (midi) to control chord changes. A way to bring more voices to pa4x is to do what roland did in the jupiter 80. Still 4 voices and 3 splitpoints to set on or of. But each of these 4 voices consisted out of 4 sounds.. having a structure like this would also allow to create ensemble voices like in the genos, these are actually harmonies that use more then 1 sound, for each of the 4 voices.

I do realise a feature like this would mean the hardware (currently thy are using a 15 year or more old processor) needs a huge update..

Next to that there isnonboard soundengine(s). Now with the gadget integration, this would be less eminent, but what they could do is add teh engines from nautilus to the Pa5x. But what they also could do is expand the current engine, so an oscilator is not just a single sample playback. But they could add more types of oscilator. Think a VA oscilators, wavetable oscilators, fm oscilators with an option to add a seperate block to each oscilator which could be a filter or another dsp effect..

Offcourse we need more effects.. in the pro audio world, you want atleast 2 effects/voice..

And then there is things like onboard arpeggiators and step sequencers but i will leave some room for your input. What innovations (which is much more then simple changes as the expand or add new features instead of just improving excisting features) would you like to see in the next generation of arrangers?


This is Someting , it,s time to fallow the 2022, not stay in 2000.
great topic btw
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
A way to bring more voices to pa4x is to do what roland did in the jupiter 80. Still 4 voices and 3 splitpoints to set on or of. But each of these 4 voices consisted out of 4 sounds.. having a structure like this would also allow to create ensemble voices like in the genos, these are actually harmonies that use more then 1 sound, for each of the 4 voices.

Agree!!!
Korg could learn a huge amount from Roland's Jupiter-80:-
1. Behaviour-Modelling - e.g. pitch bend a trumpet on any Korg (or other keyboard) and it sounds totally unrealistic - do it on the Jupiter-80 and it sounds like a trumpeter
2. Ensemble sounds - e.g. brass section (made up of 4 sounds) - on the Jupiter-80 if you play a single note you get all 4 sounds, play a 4-finger chord and each note (finger) intelligently plays different instruments in the brass section - Yamaha copied this in the Tyros-5.

There are so many more incredible sound "behaviours" in the Jupiter-80 - I would love many of the Jupiter-80 features on my Kronos and PA4X!!!!

Of course you do not have to watch this but here is what I would like on my new PA5X (and Kronos3 Wink ):-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HsQHPFMGgI

Take care
Pete Very Happy
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DjStiky
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I would LOVE to see is a native Korg style maker software. Something that could control the arranger via midi and would have a piano roll with midi editing capabilities, however with clear views and settings for all style options, sounds, mixing, etc... instead of cryptic CCs and Midi messages on the DAWs we use now. Doing it via Cubase is a pain.
THIS would speed up workflow so much!
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pa4x_user
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete said
Quote:
Of course you do not have to watch this but here is what I would like on my new PA5X (and Kronos3


That video was amazing Pete, thanks
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+ 100
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Biggles
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DjStiky wrote:
One thing I would LOVE to see is a native Korg style maker software. Something that could control the arranger via midi and would have a piano roll with midi editing capabilities, however with clear views and settings for all style options, sounds, mixing, etc... instead of cryptic CCs and Midi messages on the DAWs we use now. Doing it via Cubase is a pain.
THIS would speed up workflow so much!


vArranger
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D575
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the Jupiter 80 is interesting and inspiring considering its age and compliments my PA4X nicely and will continue to do so with what ever comes after the PA4X if it floats my boat.... I can't say I like the keybed much on the Jp80 or even my montage for that matter (may be my muscle memory is fixed on the PA4X now) this makes the PA4X with it's nice keybed (76 keys) my preferred choice as my master keyboard in my set-up... As for innovation I think much of what we see or don't see depends on what Korg think there returns will be balance against sales and invested time...although I think the general consensus here is they have squeezed the life out of any given Technologies for there returns now (which I have personally enjoyed so far, BUT time can not stand still) and of course that's the name of the game in business... But I have to agree with this topic.. in a changing landscape where hardware Arrangers want to survive (and i hope they do) then the headline of this thread is going to be important for the future... So looking forward I think Roland are clearly addressing this with Zen-Core technology central across all there new hardware platforms (although Arrangers are not included at the moment) them may be Korg would do well to cross integrate developments with old/new technologies they already have into there Arrangers to survive in a fast changing market place and it will be interesting to see where Korg go next with this for Arrangers... So as we think about the next innovations after PA4X and if we only see marginal increases in technology/innovation this time round then my guess is, the next Big signal into a new era for Korg might well be the replacement for KRONOS which could suggest which way Korg as a company are heading like Roland with Zen-Core with any new technologys/innovation and hopefully included are Arrangers...I think once Korg reveal the latest TOTL Arranger to replace the PA4X I will revisit this thread with possibly more to say after expectations have been filled or missed when reading much of the discussion on this forum.

Last edited by D575 on Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:01 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
Bachus wrote:
A way to bring more voices to pa4x is to do what roland did in the jupiter 80. Still 4 voices and 3 splitpoints to set on or of. But each of these 4 voices consisted out of 4 sounds.. having a structure like this would also allow to create ensemble voices like in the genos, these are actually harmonies that use more then 1 sound, for each of the 4 voices.

Agree!!!
Korg could learn a huge amount from Roland's Jupiter-80:-
1. Behaviour-Modelling - e.g. pitch bend a trumpet on any Korg (or other keyboard) and it sounds totally unrealistic - do it on the Jupiter-80 and it sounds like a trumpeter
2. Ensemble sounds - e.g. brass section (made up of 4 sounds) - on the Jupiter-80 if you play a single note you get all 4 sounds, play a 4-finger chord and each note (finger) intelligently plays different instruments in the brass section - Yamaha copied this in the Tyros-5.

There are so many more incredible sound "behaviours" in the Jupiter-80 - I would love many of the Jupiter-80 features on my Kronos and PA4X!!!!

Of course you do not have to watch this but here is what I would like on my new PA5X (and Kronos3 Wink ):-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HsQHPFMGgI

Take care
Pete Very Happy


Actually, the jupiter 80 has most things i would love in an arranger, except for the styles, multipads and sequencer…. But its architecture is the perfect setup for live performances..

I really enjoyed playing it and never understood why Roland never offered an arranger version from it..
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DjStiky
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biggles wrote:
DjStiky wrote:
One thing I would LOVE to see is a native Korg style maker software. Something that could control the arranger via midi and would have a piano roll with midi editing capabilities, however with clear views and settings for all style options, sounds, mixing, etc... instead of cryptic CCs and Midi messages on the DAWs we use now. Doing it via Cubase is a pain.
THIS would speed up workflow so much!


vArranger


That looks like it replaces the arranger. Not exactly what I was saying. I want something that kinda works like Cubase let say, with a piano roll and midi editing/transformation/recording, etc.... However, its not an arranger itself. It's made to create styles on the PA series and export as .sty. So it has all the options like sound selection, all style elements, variations, etc... all controllable/editable from this software. No need for CC messages, markers, figuring out which MSB/LSB/PC is which sound, etc... It's all laid out and done for you.
Imagine the built in style editor and sound selection screen, but on steroids, with a piano roll and GUI editing like Cubase/Logic. And at the end, it spits out a .SET or .STY file.


Last edited by DjStiky on Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
Bachus wrote:
A way to bring more voices to pa4x is to do what roland did in the jupiter 80. Still 4 voices and 3 splitpoints to set on or of. But each of these 4 voices consisted out of 4 sounds.. having a structure like this would also allow to create ensemble voices like in the genos, these are actually harmonies that use more then 1 sound, for each of the 4 voices.

Agree!!!
Korg could learn a huge amount from Roland's Jupiter-80:-
1. Behaviour-Modelling - e.g. pitch bend a trumpet on any Korg (or other keyboard) and it sounds totally unrealistic - do it on the Jupiter-80 and it sounds like a trumpeter
2. Ensemble sounds - e.g. brass section (made up of 4 sounds) - on the Jupiter-80 if you play a single note you get all 4 sounds, play a 4-finger chord and each note (finger) intelligently plays different instruments in the brass section - Yamaha copied this in the Tyros-5.

There are so many more incredible sound "behaviours" in the Jupiter-80 - I would love many of the Jupiter-80 features on my Kronos and PA4X!!!!

Of course you do not have to watch this but here is what I would like on my new PA5X (and Kronos3 Wink ):-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HsQHPFMGgI

Take care
Pete Very Happy


What i liked most was their architecture..
With two livesets ( left and right ). And a percussion (used that for manual bass) on the low end and the solo voices on the top end..

The liveset was so flexible, you could split and layer ( including vellocity) but als add harmonies .. and there where 4 effects for each liveset which you could assign to any or all.. also the harmonies worked as explained in your video with multiple sound divisions (same as genos ensemble voices)

Now i love workstations and arrangers, but this was the perfect instrument on stage, with just an arranger module attached..
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BR
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
...
Of course you do not have to watch this but here is what I would like on my new PA5X (and Kronos3 Wink ):-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HsQHPFMGgI

Take care
Pete Very Happy

@Pete,
Very interesting video and appealing SuperNatural sounds.
is there any 61 keys version of Jupiter-80?
I didn't find any on the net.
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Asena
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
Bachus wrote:
A way to bring more voices to pa4x is to do what roland did in the jupiter 80. Still 4 voices and 3 splitpoints to set on or of. But each of these 4 voices consisted out of 4 sounds.. having a structure like this would also allow to create ensemble voices like in the genos, these are actually harmonies that use more then 1 sound, for each of the 4 voices.

Agree!!!
Korg could learn a huge amount from Roland's Jupiter-80:-
1. Behaviour-Modelling - e.g. pitch bend a trumpet on any Korg (or other keyboard) and it sounds totally unrealistic - do it on the Jupiter-80 and it sounds like a trumpeter
2. Ensemble sounds - e.g. brass section (made up of 4 sounds) - on the Jupiter-80 if you play a single note you get all 4 sounds, play a 4-finger chord and each note (finger) intelligently plays different instruments in the brass section - Yamaha copied this in the Tyros-5.

There are so many more incredible sound "behaviours" in the Jupiter-80 - I would love many of the Jupiter-80 features on my Kronos and PA4X!!!!

Of course you do not have to watch this but here is what I would like on my new PA5X (and Kronos3 Wink ):-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HsQHPFMGgI

Take care
Pete Very Happy


Great Vid, BUT, the new technology is even better, forexample in VST,s so when they moove on to use of that tecniq WE ARE THERE, for now, we are behind even if we got a PA 10 XXXL!
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the new technology is even better, forexample in VST,s

Yes agree. I am just referring to the keyboard (standalone). Some, and maybe many, (like me) do not want to drag computers to a gig - just the keyboards.
Jupiter-80 (and there may be others) is way ahead in many aspects compared with current keyboards when it comes to realism for live performing and recording - a lot could be learned

Very Happy
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asena wrote:
karmathanever wrote:
Bachus wrote:
A way to bring more voices to pa4x is to do what roland did in the jupiter 80. Still 4 voices and 3 splitpoints to set on or of. But each of these 4 voices consisted out of 4 sounds.. having a structure like this would also allow to create ensemble voices like in the genos, these are actually harmonies that use more then 1 sound, for each of the 4 voices.

Agree!!!
Korg could learn a huge amount from Roland's Jupiter-80:-
1. Behaviour-Modelling - e.g. pitch bend a trumpet on any Korg (or other keyboard) and it sounds totally unrealistic - do it on the Jupiter-80 and it sounds like a trumpeter
2. Ensemble sounds - e.g. brass section (made up of 4 sounds) - on the Jupiter-80 if you play a single note you get all 4 sounds, play a 4-finger chord and each note (finger) intelligently plays different instruments in the brass section - Yamaha copied this in the Tyros-5.

There are so many more incredible sound "behaviours" in the Jupiter-80 - I would love many of the Jupiter-80 features on my Kronos and PA4X!!!!

Of course you do not have to watch this but here is what I would like on my new PA5X (and Kronos3 Wink ):-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HsQHPFMGgI

Take care
Pete Very Happy


Great Vid, BUT, the new technology is even better, forexample in VST,s so when they moove on to use of that tecniq WE ARE THERE, for now, we are behind even if we got a PA 10 XXXL!


In general those VST’s like the orchestral sounds in Kontakt and many other high end sample based VST are perfect for using in styles…

But playing them solo is a chore, with 14 trigger keys to trigger different samples.

What Roland did is make them playable by adding some AI and features like harmony..

Many of these Super natural acoustic (except for a few cattegories like guitar) sounds made their way into Rolands new Fantom. But not the features that would make this an incredible arranger with the flexible splits and the layering inside the live sets..


Where VST’s do shine for live playing is the true virtual instruments like SWAM. I have some of SWAM instruments on my ipad, they are all a joy to play.. but also they just beg to be played by an MPE controller..
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