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Next arranger model - NEW DESIGN vs UPGRADE
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H.I.M



Joined: 30 May 2021
Posts: 37
Location: San Diego Ca

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a PA1000 and got tired of waiting for PA5x so I bought a PA4x
I’m in love with the PA1000 so the PA4x was a no brainer for me especially at the deal I got. Brand new PA4x-76’s three grand
If a new one comes out I’ll buy that as well
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the OP is being a bit dismissive of the Genos calling it yet another Tyros. Even Yamaha saw they had enough of a leap forward that saddling it with the old line’s name might not help people recognize the steps taken. And so they changed their minds…

Let’s be clear. DOUBLING the polyphony is no minor upgrade (and yes, I do know that it is two separate 128 voice engines for different tasks, but nonetheless…) and jacking the insert effects units up to an incredible 28 separate busses is nothing to saddle with the old line’s name.

Then there’s the 8 part chord sequencer, a generational leap past Roland and Korg’s one CS. The clever bending trick the pedal steel uses is quite unique and effective. And it is chord driven, not the less flexible high note/low note system that’s the only way to get a bent single note inside a chord with a Korg.

Genos’s Revo drums with their expanded articulations and round robin behavior are totally new and finally push the Yamaha’s into a more live, less CD-like sound. And the Genos was the first move to a touch screen driven interface. There’s plenty more, but you get the point.

I think Yamaha were well justified in dropping the Tyros name…

Now, should Korg respond or just keep trotting out more incremental upgrades to the aging PA4 architecture? Only if they want to stagnate…

I think some of us are confusing an architecture change with a complete redesign of direction. It is perfectly possible for Korg to start using the Nautilus engine (12 insert effects) to power an arranger largely designed around the PA4X’s design philosophy. After, that’s what Yamaha did, although the hardware powering it has massively leaped forward, most Tyros owners were up and running with little confusion. No reason Korg can’t do that. Yamaha’s Montage team had virtually nothing to do with the Genos, no reason why a Nautilus powered arranger need drastically change the layout and design philosophy that has served Korg users so well. But the hardware is on its last legs. If Korg could squeeze 12 insert effects out of it, by now they would have…

Time for a reboot. Just don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Yamaha didn’t .
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korghelper wrote:
I think the OP is being a bit dismissive of the Genos calling it yet another Tyros.

Just to clear up my comment......
Not at all as this came directly from Yamaha at their initial product launch to distributors.
These are not my words. Initially it was advertised as "Yamaha Genos (Tyros 6)".
And yes, some more power and features but the underlying OS is very very much Tyros (or I would have bought one for sure).
Korghelper wrote:
Now, should Korg respond or just keep trotting out more incremental upgrades to the aging PA4 architecture? Only if they want to stagnate…

Compare the original PA4X OS to the current OS and it is clearly far from "incrementally upgraded"

Not here to go Y vs. K - just wondering how people would react to another PA model release vs. a brand new arranger.

Very Happy
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ckobu
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:


And yes, some more power and features but the underlying OS is very very much Tyros (or I would have bought one for sure).



That is not true at all. Genos has a brand new Linux-based OS. Genos has brand new and different hardware with a built-in SWP70 tone generator and fast NAND flash memory. It has nothing to do with the Tyros series.


http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-tone-generation/

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-main-cpu/
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tonylawton
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be happy to see a brand new keyboard provided there is compatibility with PA4x. I have a comprehensive songbook & would hate to have to start from scratch again,. So for me new hardware but with downwardly compatible file system.
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Genos has a brand new Linux-based OS. Genos has brand new and different hardware with a built-in SWP70 tone generator and fast NAND flash memory. It has nothing to do with the Tyros series.

Maybe - I was referring to its design from a user perspective, not the language (operating system environment) under which it was written or improved hardware.
Sit down with a T5 and a Genos and you'll see.
I've had both and although there are added features and capacities the OS design is fundamentally Tyros - it ain't bad but it is a hot Tyros with fab new innovative features (sarcastically) like joystick and touchscreen Wink - seriously a nice arranger but so "tyros-like" in design.

Very Happy
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tonylawton
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be happy to see a brand new keyboard provided there is compatibility with PA4x. I have a comprehensive songbook & would hate to have to start from scratch again,. So for me new hardware but with downwardly compatible file system.
I love my PA4x as it is but would also be very happy to see a software upgrade.
Tony
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vangelismusic wrote:
My opinion is that many PA4X players have not realized the big potential that the keyboard has, and will take many years to learn the instrument to it's full potential, there were many good companies that made great arrangers way ahead of their time like GEM and Technics, General Music owners went to jail and Technics keyboard line were not profitable.
I feel that for the stellar technology that is out there in 2021 both Yamaha and Korg should of had an incredible instrument but I am not impressed for the so called invested tool that we buy. The main reason that I have KORG products is that I have too many previous styles and pro styles that are made and if any new architecture comes out I would be lost, so for me at these times I would not buy another expensive new instrument no matter what it does because it will not arrange more jobs for me. A hardware upgrade for current owners would be nice, but I guess that would be a dream that will never come true.


Technics made enough money to be viable, however panasonic took over Technics just for the brand name and the technical portfolio. A few year later Panasonic got a new management and they decided to focus on their main assets, keyboards where not part of that and got closed down.

Its not that people still have a lot of things to learn about the pa4x, most people do, but then most people are only interested in learning those features they actually use.

You making assumtions, that are not true, if they bring a new style architecture, it will be easy to keep backward compatibility alive in 2022. Just look at Ketron what they have been doing. The launchpad feature (mix of an arranger and ableton live ) yet still all their old style engines are still supported…
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Asena
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korghelper wrote:
I think the OP is being a bit dismissive of the Genos calling it yet another Tyros. Even Yamaha saw they had enough of a leap forward that saddling it with the old line’s name might not help people recognize the steps taken. And so they changed their minds…

Let’s be clear. DOUBLING the polyphony is no minor upgrade (and yes, I do know that it is two separate 128 voice engines for different tasks, but nonetheless…) and jacking the insert effects units up to an incredible 28 separate busses is nothing to saddle with the old line’s name.

Then there’s the 8 part chord sequencer, a generational leap past Roland and Korg’s one CS. The clever bending trick the pedal steel uses is quite unique and effective. And it is chord driven, not the less flexible high note/low note system that’s the only way to get a bent single note inside a chord with a Korg.

Genos’s Revo drums with their expanded articulations and round robin behavior are totally new and finally push the Yamaha’s into a more live, less CD-like sound. And the Genos was the first move to a touch screen driven interface. There’s plenty more, but you get the point.

I think Yamaha were well justified in dropping the Tyros name…

Now, should Korg respond or just keep trotting out more incremental upgrades to the aging PA4 architecture? Only if they want to stagnate…

I think some of us are confusing an architecture change with a complete redesign of direction. It is perfectly possible for Korg to start using the Nautilus engine (12 insert effects) to power an arranger largely designed around the PA4X’s design philosophy. After, that’s what Yamaha did, although the hardware powering it has massively leaped forward, most Tyros owners were up and running with little confusion. No reason Korg can’t do that. Yamaha’s Montage team had virtually nothing to do with the Genos, no reason why a Nautilus powered arranger need drastically change the layout and design philosophy that has served Korg users so well. But the hardware is on its last legs. If Korg could squeeze 12 insert effects out of it, by now they would have…

Time for a reboot. Just don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Yamaha didn’t .


Well good points in manny aspects, BUT!!!
Yes its sounding like the TYROS seris even if they made it more mor´dern and more FX, You can have a Mercedes SL with the outlook of an AMG but in the hood its a Merca,

I had 5 times the GENOS, YES FIVE!, Sold and buyed a new every time i was falling back for some smal but bigg things as implaments,
I did NOT find a god sound engine there you can program the Synth, And even if you are satisfied home, when you are ion stage You cant change much, YOU mus have the YEM And a PC connected, So it killed me again.
KORG, does the same RECYKLING thing time after time, The OP,s is the same as the 1 x, even PA 80 sometimes, We need new designer, new style creators tha does not make CHA CHA, And BOLERO, its 20211 soon and we need new thinking .

For me, after using VST ,s I,m not ok with the sounds on the KB,
Not with the FX EQ, And editing possibilities.
The only ONE AND ONLY thing that made KORG on their feets is the KORG PA MANAGER!
Thanx to that program we had a chance to build new set fikes that made us to play along more than 2 yers now.

So YES We need a new KB with better CPU,Better OS, better FX , Better sounds Like VST ,s and much much more.

Thats the thing IM after on a new KORG or Whats so ever.
Even Kurzweil sounds superb now, And some other people made Virtuel Arrangers, Its faaaaaar from OK and Easy to use, But They are coming.

This topic is something that must wake up some people from Korg I HOPE Smile
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ckobu
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
Quote:
Genos has a brand new Linux-based OS. Genos has brand new and different hardware with a built-in SWP70 tone generator and fast NAND flash memory. It has nothing to do with the Tyros series.

Maybe - I was referring to its design from a user perspective, not the language (operating system environment) under which it was written or improved hardware.
Sit down with a T5 and a Genos and you'll see.
I've had both and although there are added features and capacities the OS design is fundamentally Tyros - it ain't bad but it is a hot Tyros with fab new innovative features (sarcastically) like joystick and touchscreen Wink - seriously a nice arranger but so "tyros-like" in design.

Very Happy


Of course the look of the interface is similar but there is a whole new architecture under the hood. That is the essence of good development, new and quality sound with recognizable functions. In two days I did the material transfer from Tyros4 to Genos and I was ready for the gig. The sound was 20% better immediately and without finishing.
As @tonylawton pointed out, compatibility comes first.
After that comes the difference in sound quality, and between Tyros5 and Genos it is obvious.
Whoever claims that Genos is actually Tyros 6, either doesn’t hear well or doesn’t listen properly.

I’m sure no one on this topic wants to have a new superior KORG with a screen look that contrasts with the good old PA4X. I’m also sure no one wants to spend 2 months switching material to a new keyboard. And with SD9 there were such problems. Wink
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ckobu wrote:
there is a whole new architecture under the hood

Absolutely!!! As you say "Under the hood" .... again, I was not referring to that. The overall Genos is definitely based on Tyros and clearly Yamaha went for an "upgrade" for their users - nothing wrong with that but this topic is really asking "..is this what you want in a new Korg arranger or would you prefer a fully newly designed arranger..". If the latter was offered then I would hope that there were suitable tools/instructions to aid conversion as someone has already mentioned. Even without conversion tools it would be very exciting to see a new design - I'd definitely consider it.

Purely personally, I found Genos as unfriendly and limiting as the Tyros in terms of live performing and recording - I had seriously hoped Yamaha would have focused more on that market with the Genos - of course these are my views and requirements from any professional keyboard.

So, back to the question: "Upgrade or New?"

Pete Very Happy
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As little difference as many can hear between the PA4X and the PA3X, I don’t think anyone’s in any position to dismiss the difference between the Genos and the last Tyros. 😂

I think a lot of the problem comes from players using legacy data in the new machine. Of COURSE this is going to sound quite similar if not identical to the previous generation. Yamaha kind of compound this problem by having a non standard (or Supra standard!) layout for the new Revo kits. Without a complete reworking of the drum style data, yes, you are missing out on much of the new realism and subtlety, and I don’t think the entire style library was reworked to use the Revo kits, was it?

But play PA3X styles in a PA4X, the same issue exists. It’s kind of a double edged sword. On the one hand users need data compatibility above all, but the price you pay is a new arranger that, until heavily reworked to leverage the new sounds and capabilities, sounds bloody near IDENTICAL to your prior arranger. Those 28 insert effects aren’t going to assign themselves! Those old styles aren’t going to use the Revo kits…

But those two things alone can radically change the sound of the arranger. No more deciding whether you need an insert for the keyboard sound, so you can’t use it on the same sound in the style. Every single Part in a style, sequence and all the keyboard parts can have at least one dedicated effect unit. Two or more if needed. No more shared reverbs for everything. No more same chorus on every sound via the send effects buss.

Thing is, until YOU edit your old styles (and as many of the new ones that don’t fully leverage the power the new hardware has) you can’t appreciate the difference…

While I certainly approve of data compatibility with legacy data, it’s a trap! You just spent thousands on the latest greatest, and if you don’t throw away most of your legacy data and start from scratch, you end up with the same old same old.

I think we will see far more of the next Genos’ ROM styles to fully utilize the new drum kits and leverage all the new articulations. Until then, it’s up to the user. If all you do is plug your old styles into the new sounds, you aren’t getting as much out of it as you can.

The way to make any valid comparison is to compare the best that each model can do, and to my ears at least, the best the Genos can do is night and day to the best the Tyros could. It’s the first Yamaha I can stand the drum sound at all!

I honestly think that a Yamaha player has a better case to make for how far ahead the new model is over the old than a Korg arranger player. And that’s kind of sad, given that Korg actually DO have a fresh engine waiting in the wings. Waiting for nearly ten YEARS, if we are honest. The next Korg, do we get more of the same, or is it time for Korg to finally use what WS players have enjoyed for years?

IMHO, it is already five years past time this ought to have happened.
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool I guess if we want to run a Yamaha vs Korg topic.

So, back to the topic: "Upgrade or New?"
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ckobu
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@karmathanever - Definitely needs to do the New, like Yamaha did with Genos. Wink

@Korghelper - I totally agree with you. I see that you know very well the instrument you are talking about, and that is a basic prerequisite for thinking about the topic properly. Applause
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn’t really a Yamaha vs Korg thread. It’s more a Korg vs Korg thread. Some of us seem resigned to no significant progress, others are wondering why Korg have dragged their heels on leveraging their current state of the art hardware for the arranger line….

Don’t forget, it was only one or two years after the Triton launched that its engine was powering the arrangers. It has been ten years since the Kronos shipped.

I know you’d prefer a Yamaha/Korg argument, but this one is a lot less easy to argue. Why have we been fobbed off with decades long hardware for so long?
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