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Did I rush?
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really consider PA3X to PA4X NEXT is a two generation move. Going from PA3X to the original gangsta PA4X was a far less significant leap. But a lot depends on whether you perform the kind of music that NEXT excels at. But for those doing far more conventional or oldies, it’s not really that big a deal.

And 8 years’ gap between the PA3X launch in 2011 and NEXT’s release in 2019 is not too far off my optimal arranger window for significant improvement. But I still think a couple more years will see a true ‘next gen’ Korg which ought to hit that 10+ year window of a TRULY significant change.

I think NEXT needs refinement, and some of its best features could be better integrated into the general OS rather than tucked away in the KAOSS system, and making some things like swing factoring and style thinning more accessible to less technical players could push it on a generation. But for me, until Korg get themselves a more competitive effects section, it isn’t really a ‘next gen’ arranger. The Korg workstation line has been enjoying a far more modern and competitive architecture for over a decade. When are we EVER going to get some trickle down? It didn’t take this long for the Triton hardware to get leveraged to the PA series.

What’s the holdup?

I have great difficulty telling a PA4X user demo from a PA3X demo (unless it heavily utilizes KAOSS), given equal playing skill. I want to be able to immediately tell, not struggle to distinguish them, before I’d consider a move a good idea!
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What’s the holdup?

Just maybe there isn't one??? Confused
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ten years of a hardware availability that hasn’t made a migration cannot really be looked at any other way, can it?

Imagine having to wait over ten years for the Triton architecture and capabilities to reach the arranger line. The Triton was launched 1999. In 2000 Korg launched the Pa80 based on the Triton architecture.

One year…

So yes…. What’s the holdup?
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you just said:-
KorgHelpr wrote:
Settle down, kids! Just make some bloody music! Stop agonizing over the means of producing it!


What ever you are waiting for, I hope it comes soon for you.... Wink
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not waiting for anything. Not selling what I use in the hope that something better might come along. Don’t actually NEED Korg to make a Nautilus based arranger engine.

But wouldn’t it be nice if they did? 😂💵💵💵

Be nice if we didn’t have to juggle lead sounds around the few available FX insert slots. Be nice to have sounds with FX inserts in styles and sequences without worrying about if that would pull away from how many are available for leads. A Nautilus has 12 insert effects. That’s what 20 years of progress will get you.

Quite honestly, if you polled most here and asked them what they would use most, KAOSS or an additional 8 insert FX’s freely available between keyboard Parts and style/SMF’s, do you think ANYONE would say KAOSS..?!

Have Korg simply given up on arrangers, won’t justify the R&D budget to adapt the Nautilus hardware, and think we will happily go along with more rehashes of 20 year old hardware while the competition surges ahead? How many more posts from members asking whether it’s worth it to get the latest Korg, or posts from people wondering if they should wait will we have to have before Korg come out with something that actually isn’t just ‘same girl, new clothes’..?

I want to see Korg prosper as much as anyone, but I’m not sure leaving your best technology in a box while you keep trotting out rehashed 20 year old hardware over and over is the way to do it any more.
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fascinating and vaguely confusing viewpoint...

Regarding OP, I think selling was way too soon if for the reasons of hoping for a new upgrade keyboard.
I reckon, go get a used PA4X or even PA3x and keep playing - both are excellent keyboards. I think you will be waiting a while yet for the "new" stuff whatever it might be.
...get back into making some great music Very Happy

Cheers

Pete Very Happy
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chelsea4023
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I'll never understand the 'cloak and dagger' technique used by Music Companies regarding new models being launched. What's the big deal ? They're not life saving drug treatments for God's sake, they are boxes to make music with. I went to a Keyboard Festival when the PA4X was being launched and we were invited to make a booking to be taken into a private area on a certain day at a certain time to be shown the keyboard and all sworn to secrecy not to reveal any details until the official launch. Totally cringeworthy experience being treated like a child. Almost made me go for a Yamaha Genos instead. Maybe at 66, I refuse to be taken in with all the bull***t !!

On a more positive note, when it does come out I think it will have lots of sounds and features from the Korg Nautilus which has blown me away so far. That said, I'm still on the fence regarding the CX3 organ section. Even if it's had some updating and modifications I still think it's poor compared to say the Viscount Legend expander, Crumar Mojo Expander and software clones like the GSI VB3ii, Hammond B3-X and the GG Audio Blue 3.

I'm sure the PA4X replacement will arrive eventually and I'm sure I will buy one. I'm more than happy to wait till Korg are ready.
Chris
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is going off topic - maybe a new topic to further discuss this...

chelsea4023 wrote:
I went to a Keyboard Festival when the PA4X was being launched and we were invited to make a booking to be taken into a private area on a certain day at a certain time to be shown the keyboard and all sworn to secrecy not to reveal any details until the official launch

That is definitely not unreasonable and also a great opportunity to get a preview of new gear but it's a shame you were treated badly...
chelsea4023 wrote:
I'll never understand the 'cloak and dagger' technique used by Music Companies regarding new models being launched.

....basically it is due to competition.... these companies are all in the same boat competing for business so NDAs and "secrets" are essential.

Yep - agree - CX3 just doesn't completely cut it for me. Recently spent some very surprising hours with my PA4X, a Hammond XK3c and a Nord Stage 3 and to my surprise the PA4X stood up to the "DRAWBAR challenge" - in many configurations, impossible to differentiate - we tested these sounds "blindfolded". I always use my PA4X DRAWBARS in preference to my Kronos CX3 engine for those classic solos like in "Crowded House" numbers. This is always very subjective but has certainly cemented my satisfaction levels with my PA4X.

Very Happy
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a large degree of the secrecy to which some companies go before an official launch is simply to control the flow of potential misinformation. It is all too easy to get confused about a brand new product’s capabilities and limitations, and most of us realize that we are going to discover the strengths and weaknesses only after a far more comprehensive tryout with it then we get at a trade show or something like that.

But all too many of us are willing to make assumptions that later proved to be wrong or incomplete. But they linger on the Internet, uncorrected for years. If there’s one thing the Internet is good for, it is out of date and incorrect information LOL

I have no problem with a good controlled rollout. I think it is better than having to spend months overcoming either disappointment over misunderstood features or misrepresented capabilities. And, let’s face it, how tightly does Apple control the information about their forthcoming products? We aren’t alone in being spoonfed pre-release information!
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Korghelper
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
Fascinating and vaguely confusing viewpoint...


Just trying to encourage patience. Certainly, selling off the current state of the art to potentially save a few dollars loss if you wait until the next model is actually out before you trade up is puzzling, I mean, what are you going to play while you wait? 😂

But more to the point, I’m not even sure that a new Korg if based on the old architecture would be worth the upgrade. We’ve been knocking on the door of that old hardware for so long, it’s hard to imagine how Korg can leverage anything truly significant out of it by now. But imagine an arranger based on some of the Nautilus’s hardware… Who WOULDN’T get upgraded to that?!

I honestly think the move from Tyros to Genos was a generational shift for Yamaha, and Korg need to answer the challenge. They have the hardware. Do they have the will..?
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karmathanever
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Korghelper wrote:
But imagine an arranger based on some of the Nautilus’s hardware… Who WOULDN’T get upgraded to that?!

I don't own Nautilus but I do own Knonos - what "hardware" are you referring to?

I agree that we are all "using" old hardware but what are the problems with that?
I understand some owners' needs for more sampling RAM etc...
As an "arranger" what more is needed that makes an upgrade worthwhile ($$$)?
(Not arguing - serious questions...)

If Korg bring out new arranger technology we will all immediately be concerned about our hours and hours of investment in the current technology (i.e. compatibility)
If Korg bring out a PA5X, then we'll end up with expectations that it will perform completely as a PA4X plus a whole lot more (can't think what)
Whatever they do will end up with a flood of complaints.

Korghelper wrote:
I honestly think the move from Tyros to Genos was a generational shift for Yamaha, and Korg need to answer the challenge.

Can't say I agree with that. I was VERY excited when the Genos was released and had a lot of expectations (as I owned a Tyros).
I spent a lot of hands-on time and study on the Tyros-5 and Genos - Genos was just an upgrade with exciting new add-ons like a touchscreen and joystick (about time!!) but look deeply under the covers and it is a Tyros-5+
My Yamaha dealer who had attended a lot of the pre-release Yamaha seminars overseas actually said to me "...it's a Tyros-6....".
I was hoping Yamaha would have addressed the performance tools, recording tools and "professional" aspects (and for me, produced more professionally structured styles) but Genos ended up so similar to its predecessor. Korg have no Yamaha challenge - maybe that's why there is a "new release delay" that several are talking about.
Not arguing sounds - that's all too subjective.

Sorry ANAFREE - how are you going? - hope you have acquired a keyboard to see you through Very Happy

Cheers

Pete Very Happy
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siebenhirter
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject: New arranger technology Reply with quote

karmathanever wrote:
... we are all "using" old hardware but what are the problems with that? ... as an "arranger" what more is needed ..(Not arguing - serious questions...) ..... If Korg bring out a PA5X, then we'll end up with expectations that it will perform completely as a PA4X ...


Hello Pete,
is that not justified to expect that ?
I think that it is to be expected, that at least no functions are curtailed, but at least remain intact.

Why so far valuable functions of an arranger should not be preserved and ev are not developed further?
Unfortunately, in the Arranger series from the Pa800 to the Pa1000 - especially in the midrange area - and especially in the area of style player, functions were omitted without replacement or was insufficient and have not been corrected with updates to this day.

I sufficiently documented some of these missing and insufficiently executed features here over the past four years. So it does not have to be suspected that it would not be a serious question to at least implement the omitted or inadequate features of styleplayer, necessary for musical transitions in such a way, that reimplemented in the Pa1000 at least would work as satisfactorily as we already had with the previous models Pa3x / 800/500 - and without ugly interruptions due to forcibly automatically switched KeyboardSet # 1, if the previous keyboard set expressly is not to be changed for a style changed in the songbook with StyleToKbdSet = off.

I think this is - without arguing - at least one serious question to indicate a problem and what we need farther as an "arranger".

karmathanever wrote:
... If Korg bring out new arranger technology we will all immediately be concerned about our hours and hours of investment in the current technology (i.e. compatibility) ... ...

A new technology is to be rejected anyway if it is not backward-compatible but unable to use the benefits of existing technology to her advantage - and it makes no sense if it is only new for the reason to be able to publish it as a new way of technology.

As long as KORG is incapable of at least the proven features with an update in the current OS to reimburse, I have no confidence in a new technology for Arranger keyboards.

For me an Arranger is not necessarily an open sampling system like for a workstation. For arranger-keyboard, the focus is not on a conceptual diagram of the open sampling system with all its advantages, but on automatic accompaniment of entertainer Keyboards (sometimes smiled compassionly), which one would like to assign the professional group of solo entertainers or hobby musicians and often also considered (wrongly) to be qualitatively worse.
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Interesting facts about styles and stylePlayer functions can be found at http: www.elmarherz.de
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taichi
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Joined: 21 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do we know the sales figures for Korg and Yamaha arranger keyboards ? If we knew that one was successfully outselling the other then why ?? It could point to who are the most ambitious and forward thinking, Korg or Yamaha. Which one is reaching out to their CUSTOMERS, the people that really matter ?

I am ok with my 3 Korgs, love them more each day. Play them every day. I will never need to purchase another keyboard again. Throw in my upright piano, what more could a man want ? But posters here clearly have concerns, almost every day now. What to sell and what to buy next. So we have to listen to them.

Korg and Yamaha sales figures, per country, should show what CUSTOMERS want and are buying. Seasoned musicians throughout the world will be making the same decision as us. So sales figures, Korg v Yamaha (and others} could tell us a lot.
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