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GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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 Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:47 am Post subject: |
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Possibly price movements will vary by country, then by product group, etc etc
I have noticed, here in the US, all summer, for keyboards over $1200, mfgr'd by the 3 big guys, is that retailers stay very close to MAP pricing. For factory A stock.
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Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams 
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Kevin Nolan
Approved Merchant
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 2524
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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These companies were _not_ pulled up for "over pricing"!
Their instruments aren't over priced.
They are all small companied - even Yamaha - the giant of the music industry - is a small company by multinational standards.
All of these companies innovate at extraordinary levels, easily on a par with the likes of the Apples, Googles and Facebooks of this world - yet with 1/100th of the work force and 1/1000th the market. It's an extrordinarily difficult business to be in, to stay afloat in.
It is incredible that they manage to put out the stunning instruments and music technology that they do, at the prices they charge. Even a Volca - the amount of design and innovation that goes into any one of those is extraordinary - and they charge nothing for it.
A Fantom 8 costing $4000 is equally nothing - for what you get. There's more technology in that one instrument then in all of Vangelis' studio from, say, 20 years ago.
So nobody's being cheated, and theres no stealing going on - and nobody is forcing you to buy.
There is constant misrepresentation of the state of affairs in music technology regarding the price for these devices - as overwhelmingly mis-represeented by Behringer and their armies of fans too quick to moan and groan about the price of a Moog Subsequent37 or Sequential Pro3. Behringer's products are evidently poorer in features and quality - we can all see that by now. The cliche still applies: you get what you pay for. Behringer aren't doing anyone any favours.
Companies like Korg, Roland and Yamaha may some how be price fixing - but they do not over charge - and if they do price fix it's to survive in what is a horrendously challenging business to survive in
Too many do not know how lucky they are and what a golden era we're livign in. The 80's saw the demise of a plethora of synthesizer companies and we had no choice what so ever. |
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voip
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Posts: 3773
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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I agree and, if the companies are to survive, then it's us, the customer, that pays the cost of those fines eventually.
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Narioso
Senior Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 300
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: |
Behringer's products are evidently poorer in features and quality - we can all see that by now. The cliche still applies: you get what you pay for. Behringer aren't doing anyone any favours.
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Really, and your reference for stating that is?
To me DeepMind 6 floor the D50 and JV80 I had, both in fun to be creative making own sounds and sound itself including effects. DeepMind is a incredibly well thought out unit IMO.
I also had tremendous experience with Neutron to figure out if wanting to go further into voltage routed mono instruments. Really ingenious unit.
Roland is more or less repeating what they did 40 years ago in the Jupiter 8 and call almost everything Jupiter something to benefit from that.
Korg are true innovators in my view, and every generation really bring something new to the table. KingKorg did, and my current Prologue and Wavestate too.
We can all make statements today that our mobile phones have more power than US Apollo or any other rocket in those days. Same thing with these packed workstations with musical chips benefiting from overall downsizing into chips what used to fill a room.
I looked into having a Prophet, and looked at REV2 as my #1 choice at the time. Then I looked at Sequential forum and got another view. Last firmware was rather old, and people complaining being left with a broken brick in some regard that was important to them. Bugs never fixed. Some posted "..as usuall.." about this, obviously not satisfied with another Sequential unit he had.
I talked to Sequential support, and they meant "we are a small company" like an excuse.
I felt the opposite way, being small mean you have to take care of business even more and each customer too. Or you are soon gone.
I felt strongly that if I reasoned like that my own software business would never see second year, but it went 16 years before I sold it.
And I looked at bit further into REV2 firmware updates, and there was this single midi file over 1 MB in length that you were means to shove down a midi interface just like that, and expect no errors.
And there were a long list of midi interfaces they ruled out as not working for this procedure.
So Sequential cannot even make a proper updater that do all the pausing or whatever was needed to succeed in updatering firmware. They rather deprecate a list of midi interfaces.
I looked through the firmware midi file, and it does not even divide into F0-F7 sections that is common to pause blocks like that, with a checksum. No, it's one block over 1 MB long that is to be shoved down a midi interface.
So total of it all is that I don't think much of Sequential or will get any of their products.
Lovely sounding units and all - but quality and customer care is not there. And even wonder about knowhow in certain areas like updaters.
I have no experience with Moog, but checked out everything up to Moog One to see capabilities. Some youtube channels refer to Moog as employe owned and that is what you support buying a Moog. That's nice, but have not checked out customer reviews enough if they are to be trusted. Not being into mono synths it's Moog One mostly that I am looking at.
Moog One manual has some to offer, but leave quite a bit to imagination. I was looking at abilities to create modulation routings, and it seems very flexible but not fully understand the concept. Seems you can make presets for various routings but unclear how much one of those can contain.
So still open to get a Moog possibly. But await if maybe something polyphonic down below $4000 or so it around the corner.
Not in immediate need for a Moog, having NL2X, Prologue, Wavestate and DeepMind. But exploring is fun. I think life itself is about exploring.
Not sequencing synths in the way that mono synths require - and not sure how Moog is serviced - if anywhere nearby worldwide?
But a Moog One 8 could be a purchase I make when I am assured about quality and service. Rather expensive broken brick to be left with otherwise.
So again - really interested to know the statements thrown around about quality and how Behringer does not fit?
So far I did not need Behringer service, so I shop at thomann.de that have 3 years warranty on everything. And they are really good to deal with overall.
I listened to Poly D and it sounds lovely I must say, but as mono synth is not all that cheap. It sounded so good, that I almost felt like going for it anyway, being mono and all.
And look forward to the 2600 when it is to arrive - could be fun to explore. The demos I heard sound lovely on this as well.
Behringer just keep impressing me.
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MIDI gear: Sequential REV2.16, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05 |
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Koekepan
Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 617
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | It is incredible that they manage to put out the stunning instruments and music technology that they do, at the prices they charge. Even a Volca - the amount of design and innovation that goes into any one of those is extraordinary - and they charge nothing for it. |
Hogwash. If they charged nothing for it, they'd already be out of business, because they couldn't pay their engineers. They amortise the costs of R&D, same as every other manufacturing company, and if they don't make sales, they go under. It's simple market arithmetic.
| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | So nobody's being cheated, and theres no stealing going on - and nobody is forcing you to buy. |
They have been caught breaking the rules. That there isn't outright theft is a red herring - ditto the statement on forced purchase. They are not playing by the rules - yes, that's cheating.
And before some crusading soul calls me a shill, I have nearly a dozen KORG products and a couple of Rolands as well in my direct view as I type this. I don't hate either of them. When the price/utility comparison justifies it, I buy their gear, but that doesn't make price fixing victimless.
| Kevin Nolan wrote: | | Behringer's products are evidently poorer in features and quality - we can all see that by now. The cliche still applies: you get what you pay for. Behringer aren't doing anyone any favours. |
I have six Behringer products in my direct view as well. None of them have let me down, all have seen real use in studio, on stage or both. Their features are solid for what they are, their quality is perfectly serviceable (and arguably on a par with the KORG products that I have). This isn't about Behringer, it's about KORG and their compatriots fixing prices.
| Kevin Nolan wrote: | Companies like Korg, Roland and Yamaha may some how be price fixing - but they do not over charge - and if they do price fix it's to survive in what is a horrendously challenging business to survive in
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Oh really.
Horrendously challenging.
What business isn't? What business is this mythical bed of roses in which the profits are easy and the regulations are mild?
If they don't like the rules of any given market, they may vote with their feet and leave that market. Nobody's obliging them to be in any one market - just as nobody is obliging anybody to buy from them - but they are under an actual, listed, enforceable obligation and they failed in that obligation by deliberate decision.
Now the chickens come home to roost. Hard cheese for them. |
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bpoodoo
Senior Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2019
Posts: 429
Location: Ding Dong, TX
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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I was watching some videos about the Roland Juno-DS, and sometime between 2016 and today they apparently slipped in a price increase of $100 for the 61 key and $200 for the 88 key. $699, $999 in 2016; $799, $1199 in 2020. Those 2020 prices are the same for the big 3 online keyboard retailers. Inflation, exchange rate, market demand, fine recovery, and "just because we decided to" are all possible reasons. But an example of how prices can indeed go up for the same product, still in production.
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bpoodoo
Triton Extreme 88 w/MOSS
"We all move on, like centuries and doves." |
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