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SeedyLee Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 1367 Location: Perth, Australia
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Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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The argument keeps being made that the lack of a Kronos successor is an indicator of a shrinking market for high-end workstations. But look at at this way: there’s enough of a market that Korg keep making them, 9 years later.
And Dan and Co must be working on something, because their arrangers are handled by Korg Italy, and their analogue synths are coming out of Korg Japan ... _________________ Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
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Musicwithharry Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2012 Posts: 694 Location: Anamosa, IA
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Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Kevin - your statement of "I'd go further - the 2-dimensional nature of plugins; and the utter lack of any kind of tactile control; renders them sterile - from a performance point of view," is EXACTLY why I try mainly stay away from using soft synths.
I think your statement is spot on.
Maybe Korg needs to examine making a workstation that truly bridges the gap between both hardware and software. Can we hook up a mouse and external monitor to any Korg workstations, yet? Can we truly have the seamless workflow by adding plugins to a synth workstation?
I remember the Fantom was able to utilize a mouse for easier navigation (Maybe it was the Fantom G?). I also remember the Motif trying to have more network integration..
I have not gone into the world of soft synths yet. I dabbled in them when I first got my Alesis Vortex keytar, but decided against using the soft synths because I did not want potential unreliability with a PC live (ironically enough, I posted in another thread about my PA700 crashing twice in one day - so, what do I know...)
I think that the Kronos is a fine instrument and I may even get one in the future. My main studio/live pieces are my PA700, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Korg M50. Everything else I have in my studio are just basically sound modules that get triggered from any of those three units. Being able to have one unit as the centerpiece, a true centerpiece, would be great. Having expansion options like an external monitor (maybe even a touch screen monitor) and a mouse, I believe, would bridge the gap for my studio and maybe for others. With that said, being able to unplug that centerpiece unit and put it on a stand for a live show is also very important.
Those that have adopted soft synths and have a great controller with all of the buttons/faders/knobs/etc.. that increase workflow is fantastic. What if they want to play live? I see the value in a hardware unit that can play double duty.
We've got the tech available to make a hardware unit very similar to a PC-based unit. Maybe someone really needs to make the plunge and truly design one again.
Who knows that Korg has in store for us...
Grace,
Harry _________________ Alesis Vortex Keytar, Alesis QS6.2, Alesis QSR, Alesis SR-16, Behringer Deepmind-12, Ensoniq Avista 7600, Ensoniq VFX, Ensoniq VFX-SD, Ensoniq SQ1+, (2) Ensoniq SQ-R+/32, Korg i3 (2020 Version), (2) Korg Kross 1-61, (2) Korg Kross 1-88, Korg Minilogue XD, Korg Minilogue XD Module, Korg M50-61, Korg PA700, Korg X5DR, Korg Z3, Kurzweil SP1, Lowrey EZP3 (bascially a Kawai), Roland D-05, Roland E-09, Waldorf Streichfett, Yamaha Reface CP, Yamaha Reface CS, Yamaha Reface DX, Yamaha Reface YC |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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SeedyLee wrote: | The argument keeps being made that the lack of a Kronos successor is an indicator of a shrinking market for high-end workstations. But look at at this way: there’s enough of a market that Korg keep making them, 9 years later.
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thats a point worth exploring. its accurate the models are available all over. And price has not changed
But, Korg, as a mfgr', likely assembles the models in a batch, lets say a 6 month supply- 12 month supply. Then they are shipped out to the country disti's and they hold them in their inventory.
IOW, Korg doesn't eke out a supply each month, and parcel that out to the country disti's. Thats too costly, inefficient, etc etc. This is a $3000 keyboard not a $50 widget or a $200 VST.
And unit sales are likely declining. 2011-2012 where Big Bang years. so was 2015 and 2016. My guess.
But the unit sales curve is likely declining each year. So what we might be seeing are models made in assembly from early 2019. Korg could be slowly draining large batches as annual unit sales decline.
The above speculation is actually a good sign of transitioning to EOL and/or a new model.
To be caught with too much inventory is a huge business sin. Heads roll when there is a mistake like this. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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Narioso Senior Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2015 Posts: 300 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sharp wrote: |
I think this is the reality Hardware Manufactures need to face and they should have seen this coming for the last 20 years as the world very clearly moves towards software. Hardware manufactures need to stop trying to do it all. You cannot produce all the hardware and software while also expect to compete. They need to open their hardware to become a host for software synths and such.
IF KORG made such a move and their next workstation was mainly a VST host, they could even sell their own exsisting VST's for their own hardware. Makes sense to me.
Regards
Sharp. |
Aren't you forgetting about the piracy issue and software?
CEO of Arturia explained in an interview the very reason they went hardware is due to this.
And that Behringer do so many hardware synths, seems they have an ear to the ground.
Nothing will shift me towards software alone - it's nothing like having hardware synths - both for playing, composing and just making sounds and fun of being creative.
So think both camps are large enough to make hardware. Nothing compares. Some extra steps in a daw, but worth it many times over.
Hardware may cost 10 times the same in software - but also have resell value. You should have a good chance to get 50-60% back selling it.
Software is just another version and try to sell that at $500 and up for all those manhours invested.
I really like the Waves Element VST synth - and they came with v2 of that and seems it did not go so well, so everybody that bought v1 got v2 for free a couple of years ago.
I tried NI B4 and also got an UC-33 controller with ready overlays on panel for it. It helped a bit - but later went the path of hardware Hammond.
Having this power button - and off you go - no starting computers and software and stuff. Just sit a play a bit - it never happend in the same way with computer for me at least. _________________ MIDI gear: Sequential REV2.16, Prologue-8, Hammond XK-3C, Kawai MP7SE piano, Nord Lead 2X, Roland D-05 |
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Bachus Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 3126
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Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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The new workstation of Korg will be a dedicated hardware controller for gadget..
The more i thinkabout it, the less chances i see for a true Kronos follow up..
Maybe Steven kay should develop a Karma version for gadget too? _________________ Korg Kronos 2/88 , Genos, Mainstage3 +VSTsu, ipad pro, GSi Gemini, Roland Integra 7, Jupiter Xm, Yamaha motif XS rack, Ketron SD90.
www.keyszone.boards.net |
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Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 18197 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Narioso.
Quote: | Aren't you forgetting about the piracy issue and software? |
A fair point, but hardware manufacturing results in vast third party costs to KORG as they are not a metal fabrication facility, and they don’t produce their own components. Most parts are bought in and assembled at KORG. This is why hardware costs so many times more than software. KORG pass their third party costs onto you.
As a result, it’s of no benefit to KORG either way. If anything the hardware is far more hassle as you have the admin of producing all that, and shipping boxes, repair parts and so on.
Even if KORG lost a massive 40% to piracy, how much do you think they loose to third party hardware costs. I understand from a morals point of view it's not the same kind of loss, but it is a loss either way to KORG.
Quote: | and that Behringer do so many hardware synths, seems they have an ear to the ground. |
No, Behringer have a different approach. They have almost no dependency on third party suppliers because they do have the ability to manufacture everything in house. They even pulp their own paper for speakers.
Behringer is geared towards being a hardware manufacture from the ground up, that’s why they are so competitive on price. Most of their costs are all under their own roof, and not twith hird party suppliers.
Quote: | Nothing will shift me towards software alone - it's nothing like having hardware synths - both for playing, composing and just making sounds and fun of being creative. |
Me nether,. For example, the main reason why I like Native Instruments Komplete is that it comes with a Keyboard designed to work with the software they sell, and it works just fine with other manufactures software. It’s the blend of hardware and software that makes it innovative and exciting.
KORG should be doing the same. Embrace the hardware and software together.
For example, why on earth have they not released the entire M1, Wavestation and Triton VST’s for the KRONOS?
This would add value to their hardware and software.
Quote: | Hardware may cost 10 times the same in software - but also have resell value. You should have a good chance to get 50-60% back selling it. |
I see that only as a negative thing. I’ve sold many keyboards in the past and regretted doing so because they were really good, but I was forced to do so simply so I could finance the purchase of the latest model.
I’ve never had the need to do that with software and I still have every VST I ever purchased.
Regards
Sharp. |
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Sharp Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 18197 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Bachus wrote: | The new workstation of Korg will be a dedicated hardware controller for gadget..
The more i thinkabout it, the less chances i see for a true Kronos follow up..
Maybe Steven kay should develop a Karma version for gadget too? |
Something along those lines makes far more sense.
Regards
Sharp. _________________
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Koekepan Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Sep 2016 Posts: 616
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Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't say no to a fully embedded version of Gadget. A 7 inch touchscreen, maybe, and perhaps a minikey keyboard for easy note entry. A couple of inserts and sends per track, and you'd have a very nice little beast. |
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AtinDallas Full Member
Joined: 24 Jun 2003 Posts: 100 Location: Dallas, Texas
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:02 am Post subject: |
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No new flagship arranger news either? |
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Jan1 Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 765
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
To be caught with too much inventory is a huge business sin. Heads roll when there is a mistake like this. |
So, who’s going to be the one to sneak into the KORG warehouse to check the inventory? |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Jan1 wrote: | Quote: |
To be caught with too much inventory is a huge business sin. Heads roll when there is a mistake like this. |
So, who’s going to be the one to sneak into the KORG warehouse to check the inventory? |
good idea.
Ask for a factory tour and bring your iPhone _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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fomalhaut Junior Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2015 Posts: 83 Location: Madrid, Spain
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Kevin Nolan wrote: | The manual isn't 1200 pages long for no reason. Multiple top-notch synth engines including a modular FM synthesizer; stunning acoustic and electric pianos, CX3 emulation, Karma, Wavesequencing, Vector Synthesis, Dynamic MIDI, AMS, extraordinary effects, near zero latency over hundreds of polyphonic voices, very high quality keybed and controllers, and on an on. You're telling me you've explored all of that? The truth is, you've gotten so used to it that you're taking it for granted.
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That and a full fledged sampler too.
The Montages and Fantoms are targeting different use cases but they are nonetheless capturing some market share at high price points so they should be hurting Korg's P&L. The Kronos deep capabilities can be undisputed but if the money has started going elsewhere Korg will need to respond when time is due (dont think there's a hurry, most Korg sales must be Volcas and 'logues these days).
So my guess is that the next Korg flagship will be in a totally different class and Kronos will be the last and the best of its breed. |
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maphill Full Member
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Posts: 217
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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I have both an original Kronos and a new Fantom. The Kronos is easily the more power in the sound department. And it just plain sounds better for a lot of sounds (esp. pianos). But the Fantom has a few strengths that mean I'll be using it for the church band until Korg has something better:
- Sliders and encoders with indicators
- Pads where I can trigger backing tracks
- Excellent edit knobs below the screen
- Easier work flow for edits (though I don't like the hierarchy of sound design as much)
- Easier to use touch screen (size of targets, amount of pressure)
And it has the dedicated performance knobs on the right but I don't even use those.
What I really want is:
- a top-notch Korg engine
- a control surface more like the Fantom's
- long sample playback from pads
- less weight/size than an OASYS (had one of those, too)
- smooth sound transitions and setlists (scene chaining)
Personally, I don't need the super-detailed 16-track sequencer. I use a DAW for that.
My point: as more people shift to controllers and software (tons of people use mainstage in worship music!) or to other more modern keyboards with better control surfaces or easier workflows, I think Korg would have an opportunity for making a new Kronos-like board with a better control surface, etc. The trick is that adds to the bill-of-materials.
-Mark _________________ Korg KRONOS 73, Trinity Pro, Monotron,
Roland FA-06 and Fantom 6, Roland TDK-15
Big Knob, Sonar (Previously, OASYS 76) |
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GregC Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002 Posts: 9451 Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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maphill wrote: | I h
W
My point: as more people shift to controllers and software (tons of people use mainstage in worship music!) or to other more modern keyboards with better control surfaces or easier workflows, I think Korg would have an opportunity for making a new Kronos-like board with a better control surface, etc. The trick is that adds to the bill-of-materials.
-Mark |
thats the low cost challenge. You are suggesting that Korg be more like the masses using a controller + software.
I suppose Korg could follow the herd. To do that under $1000 + the genius of Korg sound programming could be a winner. _________________ Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
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maphill Full Member
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Posts: 217
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Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, my personal preference would be to have it all in the keyboard for performance. One less thing to hook up. Even if that meant paying $3500 for a 61-key. Think "Greatest Hits from the OASYS and the Kronos Rolled into One".
-Mark _________________ Korg KRONOS 73, Trinity Pro, Monotron,
Roland FA-06 and Fantom 6, Roland TDK-15
Big Knob, Sonar (Previously, OASYS 76) |
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