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Will the New Fantom Motivate Korg ?
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Musicwithharry
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not concerned. If Roland says they will upgrade, they will upgrade. If it takes a few months or a year , thats not on my worry list. It already has a ton of useful functionality.

About a w/s or whatever in the bag, yeah, Korg hypothetically, has to be quite far along on a new product. These complex keyboards are not slapped together in a few months.

Or Korg has no plans beyond Kronos. Thats possible.

We have been speculating like this for 2 years about Korg. No one outside Korg knows whats going on. Or not going on.[/quote]

To be fair, when the Kronos came along, it was quite wonderful. It still is. It likely has more users than the other brands' offering.

I know that new keyboards are not just slapped together. For all we know, they've been working behind the scenes on something for quite some time, and they have been very good at hiding it Smile I completely agree with you on that Smile

I am not sure that Korg should be concentrating on the entry-level and mid-level stuff more than the flagship. I understand if they are though, they would sell LOTS more Kross units and even the Krome units than the Kronos units. One has to admit that the Kross 2 is a pretty impressive instrument, especially considering its price. With that said, as long as they still work on a flagship, selling the lower-cost stuff is just fine.

I never really got into the Krome at all. I tried one, but ended up going with a Kross 1 for an additional unit in my studio (and live).

I hope that Roland does come through with the upgrades and additions for the new Fantom. It is a platform that seems to be upgradeable/upgradable, and that is cool.

I rather like the V-Piano engine being in the Fantom. It would be hard for me to pick between the Fantom-88 and a Kawai MP11-SE. I love both sounds Smile

Grace,
Harry
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GregC
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Musicwithharry wrote:
I aon.


1)To be fair, when the Kronos came along, it was quite wonderful. It still is. It likely has more users than the other brands' offering.


2) I am not sure that Korg should be concentrating on the entry-level and mid-level stuff more than the flagship. I understand if they are though, they would sell LOTS more Kross units and even the Krome units than the Kronos units. One has to admit that the Kross 2 is a pretty impressive instrument, especially considering its price. With that said, as long as they still work on a flagship, selling the lower-cost stuff is just fine.

I never really got into the Krome at all. I tried one, but ended up going with a Kross 1 for an additional unit in my studio (and live).


Grace,
Harry[/quote]

I see Kronos from 8 yrs ago and Korg today as separate discussions.

I love my Kronos and have composed 60 songs on it. I will keep it
as long as possible.

Simply, IMO, there is much more to music production than Kronos.

Which is why I have strong interest in Fantom. And I plan large purchases.
These boards are not impulse purchases for me.

Anyway, yes, looking at the less expensive new products Korg has launched over the past 3 years does suggest their profit priorities.

I would guess what Korg [ or any co] does or does not do is money motivated
and based on how sales are proceeding.

Product transitions for these co's is tricky business. Its a careful calculation.

I sense I am in the minority in wanting to see a new concept $4000 keyboard
from Korg. I like choices and analyzing whats what. My goal is interesting music production and I enjoy and will use the best. Simple for me to say this.
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might just be me, but for all the nice UI design the new Fantom possesses, it really just doesn't sound that great to my ears.
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theshinenz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeedyLee wrote:
It might just be me, but for all the nice UI design the new Fantom possesses, it really just doesn't sound that great to my ears.


If you listen to one in person through some good monitors I’m sure you’ll change your mind, it’s a great sounding instrument.
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on what you use:

Many synth pads and leads (and synths in general) sound great.
B3s are miserable.
EPs and many acoustic instruments are meh.

The biggest problem of the actual Fantom is that it has big sound and sound quality holes. That may become much better, if Roland integrates their Supernatural sounds some day.

Until then, the Fantom isn't a real allrounder across music genres and styles, and you would have a hard time doing gigs with it alone, like you can easily do with a Kronos.

It will probably forever miss additional instrument sample libraries and user sampling, and FM. But with all of the best Roland sounds from ACB, S/N etc (kicking 20 year old XV/JV sounds out of the present unit instead), it could still become a good allrounder.

At the moment it is just a well done performance synth, with a good UI and some good synth sounds, plus some nice pianos, at the high cost of an allrounder premium workstation.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is getting lost in the discussion. Rolands Fantom has state of the art DAW integration. For the Home Studio person this is a priority.

Kronos, by comparison is primitive with DAW integration. Its a well discussed weakness. Sure , some Kronos owners have workaround the weakness and invested in the time to make it worth.

Noting that Korg has done absolutely nothing on Kronos, to improve DAW integration. I am talking convenience and speed of access- Roland with Fantom has more than exposed this weakness of Kronos.

Once again, I am thinking Korg ' should ' produce a new concept premium production synthesizer.
I won't call it a 'work station ' since Roland and Yamaha has stopped using this term as a product reference.

Still waiting on Korg, if they will get in the game. Which is why I keep poking at Kronos owners here, if they are looking ahead on a Korg move.

I have no problem thinking about this hypothetical. I don't need to see all the black and white to consider the hypothetical.

And another $4000 top of the line keyboard to consider does not upset me.
Not even a little.

Its fun to consider the future. I don't worry about the cost. These topics always work their way out. Assuming you want the best music production tools.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
It depends on what you use:

Many synth pads and leads (and synths in general) sound great.
B3s are miserable.
EPs and many acoustic instruments are meh.

The biggest problem of the actual Fantom is that it has big sound and sound quality holes. That may become much better, if Roland integrates their Supernatural sounds some day.

Until then, the Fantom isn't a real allrounder across music genres and styles, and you would have a hard time doing gigs with it alone, like you can easily do with a Kronos.

I wouldn't go so far as to say you'd have a hard time doing all-round gigs with it alone... the XV-5080 sound set alone can get you through most typical gigs where you need those bread-and-butter acoustic sounds, and the Fantom does have more than that (V-Piano, AX-Edge sounds, and a handful of others). But I'd agree that acoustic sounds are not at Kronos level (or the level you might expect when paying a Kronos-like price). I hope they do enhance the soundset with SN acoustic tones, etc. But for now, I think maybe it's a matter of adjusting our perception of what the keyboard is supposed to be.

My initial thought was that the new Jupiter would focus on synth sounds (VA), and the Fantom would be more acoustic instrument oriented (like their earlier namesakes), but it turns out that, at least so far, I think they are both primarily VA synth boards, with acoustic tones in more of a supporting role. From what I've seen, for acoustic instrument sounds, Jupiter X and Fantom both have the XV-5080 rompler sound set... the difference is that Fantom mostly adds the V-Piano and AX-Edge sounds, while the Jupiter adds the RD-700GX piano sounds, so while the Fantom has the edge there, they are not worlds apart. The bigger differences are elsewhere... i.e. the Jupiter X is a 5-part (4+drums) board with specific emulations of classic Roland synths (Jupiter 8, Juno-106, SH-101, JX-8P) and a complete dedicated synth control surface; the Fantom instead is a 16-part board with DAW integration, sequencer, sampler/trigger pads, MIDI controller functions, and a less synth-specific but more generalized performance board control surface. So there's a lot of different functionality, but sonically, they both seem to emphasize synth over acoustic sounds, at this point anyway.
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hackjo



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kronos is a massively powerful instrument and this has not yet been matched on the market. The Fantom hasn't moved the game on in this regard.

What it has done is demonstrate a more modern, slick and usable user interface. It's true that the Kronos has a learning curve and once this has been surmounted, it makes sense. But it's UI is definitely from the days when professional instruments were designed to be tools that got the job done first and foremost and a certain level of technical competence was required from the user to get the best out of them.

I don't necessarily have a problem with that and I think we are becoming too conditioned to expect every item of technology to spoon feed us, look pretty and be constantly upgraded at no cost to us. This is dangerous and I fear that in the process of making synthesisers as powerful as the Kronos as simple to use as an iPhone, we may lose things we later lament.

That said, if Korg released an upgrade or a new instrument with tangible improvements to the UI, that would be no bad thing.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
[quoothers). But I'd agree that acoustic sounds are not at Kronos level (or the level you might expect when paying a Kronos-like price). I hope they do enhance the soundset with SN acoustic tones, etc. But for now, I think maybe it's a matter of adjusting our perception of what the keyboard is supposed to be.

y.


not at Kronos level ? I would not generalize it.
Open up the picture and review all instrument categories and do a compare.

Its more accurate to do a category to category. Kronos vs Fantom [with SN ?}.
Or any 2 keyboards for that matter.

AP's
EP's
Organ
Guitar
Strings
Brass
Bass
Woodwind
reed
Orchestra
drums
synths [ and sub categories]
evolving/motion.
...and so on

I think its important to analyze/compare this way.

Of course, if a keyboardist doesn't care about drums, or bass guitar , sure, thats your pref or bubble.

But some of us utilize all the instrument categories to get a very good musical result.
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Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Scott wrote:
[quoothers). But I'd agree that acoustic sounds are not at Kronos level (or the level you might expect when paying a Kronos-like price). I hope they do enhance the soundset with SN acoustic tones, etc.


not at Kronos level ? I would not generalize it.
Open up the picture and review all instrument categories and do a compare.

Its more accurate to do a category to category. Kronos vs Fantom [with SN ?}.
Or any 2 keyboards for that matter.

AP's
EP's
Organ
Guitar
Strings
Brass
Bass
Woodwind
reed
Orchestra
drums
synths [ and sub categories]
evolving/motion.
...and so on

I think its important to analyze/compare this way.

Of course, if a keyboardist doesn't care about drums, or bass guitar , sure, thats your pref or bubble.

But some of us utilize all the instrument categories to get a very good musical result.

At this point, Fantom has no SN acoustic tones. So looking at your list, Kronos vs. Fantom...

APs... judgment call, multiple large sample-based pianos vs. V-Piano

EPs, organ, guitar, strings, brass, bass, woodwind, reed, orchestra... Kronos probably has the advantage in all of those, between its deeper sample sets and multiple engines.

Drums I have no idea, I use real drummers and pay no attention to a boards' drum capabilities.

Synths, evolving motion... My premise was comparing their acoustic sounds (as I highlighted in the quote above). Synths are a whole other ball game, and far more subjective, in that we know (for example) what an orchestral instrument should sound like, whereas we have no reference for what constitutes a "better" or 'more authentic" non-real-instrument sound, that just comes down to what you like.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott wrote:
GregC wrote:
Scott wrote:
[quoothers). But I'd agree that acoustic sounds are not at Kronos level (or the level you might expect when paying a Kronos-like price). I hope they do enhance the soundset with SN acoustic tones, etc.


not at Kronos level ? I would not generalize it.
Open up the picture and review all instrument categories and do a compare.

Its more accurate to do a category to category. Kronos vs Fantom [with SN ?}.
Or any 2 keyboards for that matter.

AP's
EP's
Organ
Guitar
Strings
Brass
Bass
Woodwind
reed
Orchestra
drums
synths [ and sub categories]
evolving/motion.
...and so on

I think its important to analyze/compare this way.

Of course, if a keyboardist doesn't care about drums, or bass guitar , sure, thats your pref or bubble.

But some of us utilize all the instrument categories to get a very good musical result.

At this point, Fantom has no SN acoustic tones. So looking at your list, Kronos vs. Fantom...

APs... judgment call, multiple large sample-based pianos vs. V-Piano

EPs, organ, guitar, strings, brass, bass, woodwind, reed, orchestra... Kronos probably has the advantage in all of those, between its deeper sample sets and multiple engines.

Drums I have no idea, I use real drummers and pay no attention to a boards' drum capabilities.

Synths, evolving motion... My premise was comparing their acoustic sounds (as I highlighted in the quote above). Synths are a whole other ball game, and far more subjective, in that we know (for example) what an orchestral instrument should sound like, whereas we have no reference for what constitutes a "better" or 'more authentic" non-real-instrument sound, that just comes down to what you like.


Roland has already confirmed the SN update is in the plans. You can play wait and see, no problem. In fact, I would prefer to buy the Fantom with the SN update in hand .

Here, we can be safely hypothetical. I promise not to get on anyone's case
about a hypothetical. Its a friendly give and take.

Thus I would proceed with the SN compare with Kronos. Its going to be done anyway, so why put it off ?

You are totally right about synth tones. That is all over the map for a compare. we could discuss the general characteristics. Roland synths are
ballsy and agressive. Kronos are smooth. etc etc, Whatever. Just a rough compare.

I guess you don't play guitar. Or play with guitar FX. Roland guitars are superior to Kronos factory . I am positive. Just an example .

It takes time and some experience to handle the comparison. for example, I notice keyboardists don't even recognize the different types of sax. They talk like sax is sax. You have to get on the same page of a sax player to get realistic about the instrument on a keyboard. This is not being nit-picky.
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jimknopf
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I could, but would not exactly want to play a gig with a two decades old XV sample set.

Concerning the other Fantom sounds, I named examples and could name more: I would definitely NOT want to play gigs, across different musical genres, with the actual Fantom soundset alone. They have damned good reasons to claim, already now at release, that they intend to add (some or many) of their S/N sounds, simply because these (and NOT the actual sounds, in several categories), match today's level of demand.

And yes, I agree with Scott:
I also would expect the new Jupiters to excel with everything Roland has to offer in the synthcatergory (no matter if generated by ACB, S/N or whatever), while the Fantom would cover all the other acoustic and keyboard bread and butter sounds along with the sequencer as well. This would position both in the market in a very clear cut way and be offers to very different possible customer groups.

If they did it like that, I would be interested in the Jupiter as addon synth, simply because I like these nice warm Roland synth sounds. But as it is now, there is no way at all, that the present Fantom could, even remotely, replace my Kronos: that would be only interesting in some regards (easy UI, some sounds) and be a really miserable downgrade in too many other regards.

And @Greg, as Cubase user I wouldn't profit from the tight Fantom Logic integration at all. In Cubase, I use an external instruments script for the Kronos, including direct sound choice via banks and patch names, and can record midi and audio without problems (including latency compensation). I would want the Kronos integration to be MUCH better via a well done 64bit VST plugin. The present Korg 32bit editor is a complete no go.

So the situation doesn't look like having the right choices right now:
- the Kronos, after 10 years of use, and with a basic development stage of more than 15 years, urgently needs new hardware (the Intel Atom is really nothing at all compared to available present CPU power), a massively updated UI, including simpler controller management and a bigger display, a MUCH better overdrive, better samples in some categories and perhaps an additonal engine like the Mono-Poly. In one word: it urgently needs a successor
- Roland on the other hand, despite some really great development, offers a weird mixed bag, where I neither want the new Jupiter (I would want that to simply be a 'best of Roland synth sounds", not more and not less, and nothing else) nor the Fantom (from my view heavily incomplete as 2019 workstation, mainly concerning missing sound content through all categgories in sufficient quality, no audio recording, and altogether missing instrument sample management/audio streaming from SSD).
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Scott
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
I guess you don't play guitar. Or play with guitar FX.

True, I rarely use a guitar sound, because I'm always working with guitarists.

I agree that once Fantom has SN Acoustic sounds, it will be much more competitive in the acoustic instrument arena. I was comparing what's available today. Can't show up to a gig or session and say you'll have the sounds next year. Wink

That said, I would still take, for example, Kronos CX3 organ and EP1 EPs over the SuperNatural organ and EPs in the Integra7. But we'll see what comes, we can't compare what doesn't yet exist.

As it is today, I think Kronos has some inherent technical advantages in acoustic sounds, between some of the modeled engines, the availability of FM synthesis, more and potentially larger sample sets (and the "more" also gets back to your comment about needing more than "a" sax sound, but rather a variety of them), and in its main HD1 sampling engine, a greater number of samples available in the creation of a single sound. Fantom has up to 4 partials per tone, I believe the Kronos equivalent is up to 8 multisamples per oscillator, and up to two oscillators per program. So I think that means a single acoustic instrument tone of the Fantom can have up to 4 layered/switched samples, where a Kronos HD1 sound can have up to 16. (And Montage/MODX and I think Kurzweil can have more than that.)
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DREY



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought Kronos in July 2011 and sold it a month later.It was the worst sound quality out of all my synthesizers. Kronos at the exit has one middle, bass soap bottoms and plastic tops
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimknopf wrote:
I also would expect the new Jupiters to excel with everything Roalnd has to offer in the synthcatergory
...
If they did it like that, I would be interested in the Jupiter as addon synth, simply because I like these nice warm Roland synth sounds.

The Jupiter Xm is the only one of the new boards that I'm really tempted to buy... nice combination of price, travel weight, sounds, features. Wish I could detach the keyboard and use it as just a module!

jimknopf wrote:
I neither want the new Jupiter (I would want that to simply be a 'best of Roland synth sounds", not more and not less, and nothing else) .

I don't mind that it has a little something else (XV-5080 and RD700GX sounds). Those could come in handy, but even if you don't care about that stuff, I wouldn't assume it added much to the price or operational complexity of the machine, and as long as our boards are not custom made for us, to get what we want, we're almost always going to also have to take something we don't care about, but serves to make the board sellable to more people, which in the end is to our benefit as well, since more successful boards get better supported (and help keep the companies in business). The Kronos is full of stuff I don't care about, but I got 'em to get the stuff I do care about!
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