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Kronos and Prologue combo.
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CharlesFerraro
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
The third digital osc can be a wavetable oscillator, and I don't think the Kronos has that, at least that I've found. Wavetable synthesis could (possibly?) be approximated with single cycle waveforms in the K's wave sequencer with short crossfades, but haven't tried it yet.

Yeah the Kronos absolutely does wavetable stuff with the wave sequencer aspect of HD-1. It's difficult to approximate the programming of something as sophisticated as say, Codex, but it is possible nonetheless. I've cross programmed sounds from Codex into the K without a hitch.


Lightbringer wrote:
There is something to a real analog filter as well. I have not had a chance to try out FM with the AL-1 and it's ultra-low aliasing, but aliasing is something you don't have to worry about doing FM synthesis in the analog realm.

Unfortunately the entirety of the signal is passed through the digital effects which does make the sound essentially digital. Aliasing occurs when a high pitched frequency (usually an overtone) breaks the Nyquist limit and appears as an "alias" at a lower register. So when the analog signal is digitized it could create such artifacts.
Naturally Korg has very good anti-aliasing tech and will have a proper hidden filter before the ADC. I'm crossing my fingers for a "true bypass" routing on the hardware level but it seems unlikely.

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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlesFerraro wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
The third digital osc can be a wavetable oscillator, and I don't think the Kronos has that, at least that I've found. Wavetable synthesis could (possibly?) be approximated with single cycle waveforms in the K's wave sequencer with short crossfades, but haven't tried it yet.

Yeah the Kronos absolutely does wavetable stuff with the wave sequencer aspect of HD-1. It's difficult to approximate the programming of something as sophisticated as say, Codex, but it is possible nonetheless. I've cross programmed sounds from Codex into the K without a hitch.


rl]


I would like to see the result ( Programs/Combis using Al-1/Mod7) of sophisticated and/or deeper programming of Kronos.

couldn't Kronos, with a knowledgeable sound designer, approximate many of the sound characteristics of Prologue ?
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


I would like to see the result ( Programs/Combis using Al-1/Mod7) of sophisticated and/or deeper programming of Kronos.

couldn't Kronos, with a knowledgeable sound designer, approximate many of the sound characteristics of Prologue ?


That's a good question.
Just one point about that, one example as regards the VCF Cutoff parameter. On a real analog synth, of course, it's a no-step setting. On the Prologue, as the cutoff is digitally controlled, it's a 1024 steps setting.

As the Kronos cutoff is controlled by a 128 steps setting, some could say Kronos is far from a true analog synth.
Not so sure, because there are the AMS MIXERS, with "Smoothing" setting, you can apply as a modulator to the cutoff frequency. That way you don't hear steps in modulation anymore. This is a really powerfull characteristic.

It was just a very little example.

So I'm quite sure it would be possible to get near of a Prologue synth with the Kronos, (as many other analog synths, by the way).
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GregC
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liviou2004 wrote:
Quote:


I would like to see the result ( Programs/Combis using Al-1/Mod7) of sophisticated and/or deeper programming of Kronos.

couldn't Kronos, with a knowledgeable sound designer, approximate many of the sound characteristics of Prologue ?


That's a good question.
Just one point about that, one example as regards the VCF Cutoff parameter. On a real analog synth, of course, it's a no-step setting. On the Prologue, as the cutoff is digitally controlled, it's a 1024 steps setting.

As the Kronos cutoff is controlled by a 128 steps setting, some could say Kronos is far from a true analog synth.
Not so sure, because there are the AMS MIXERS, with "Smoothing" setting, you can apply as a modulator to the cutoff frequency. That way you don't hear steps in modulation anymore. This is a really powerfull characteristic.

It was just a very little example.

So I'm quite sure it would be possible to get near of a Prologue synth with the Kronos, (as many other analog synths, by the way).


Thanks for that. I realize there are going to be ' control differences', different filters, difference in routing.

I was curious if both boards had numerous similarities in underlying architecture- which could result a similar result, given a talented sound programmer.

Even, after 7 yrs of popularity, I don't see where Kronos has been thoroughly
exploited, as in expertly programmed with the Al-1/Mod7 engines + wave sequencing.

Korg had the talent in house, as we can see. I am not aware of a similar bunch of deep programming talent.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great discussion here. Smile

CharlesFerraro wrote:
Yeah the Kronos absolutely does wavetable stuff with the wave sequencer aspect of HD-1. It's difficult to approximate the programming of something as sophisticated as say, Codex, but it is possible nonetheless. I've cross programmed sounds from Codex into the K without a hitch.


Ah, you've tried it out then! Good stuff. Yeah, crossfading is of course not the same as interpolation, but I would think for a good subset of wavetable type patches, the difference would be more semantic than audible.

I was originally thinking that the wave sequencing was a completely separate offline process, but it looks like you can turn 'run' off, and then AMS modulate position - so maybe control the "wavetable index" with an EG or LFO. Definitely need to spend some time exploring this. Looks awesome!

Have you seen Synthesis Technology WaveEdit? It's a nice piece of software for creating custom wave tables. They built it to create wave tables for their E352 and E370 [Eurorack] modules, but they generously made it free/open source. Might make for some real fun in the wave sequencer.

Liviou2004 wrote:
As the Kronos cutoff is controlled by a 128 steps setting, some could say Kronos is far from a true analog synth.
Not so sure, because there are the AMS MIXERS, with "Smoothing" setting, you can apply as a modulator to the cutoff frequency. That way you don't hear steps in modulation anymore. This is a really powerfull characteristic.


Do you think there's some kind of smoothing algorithm on the filter without even running it through the AMS Mixer smooth function? If I go to an init AL-1 patch, go into RT control mode and crank up resonance (knob 2) and sweep cutoff (knob 1), I don't really hear a zippering/stairstep effect.

GregC wrote:
Even, after 7 yrs of popularity, I don't see where Kronos has been thoroughly
exploited, as in expertly programmed with the Al-1/Mod7 engines + wave sequencing.


Couldn't agree more. Good gravy, MOD-7 is such a monster synth architecture. You could probably spend a lifetime making new patches and never run out of possibilities.

I'm definitely looking forward to going deep into the K's synth engines. Happy to share any successes here. Would love to get some new 'buzz' going here despite the K being 7 years old. Hope I'm not being naive, but I think there's tons of new territory left.
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runningman67
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could say that the Kronos covers everything but having a dedicated Analogue machine, is like having the ultimate crossover/hybrid synth. The JDXA does this quite well and enjoyed owning it but the Kronos/Prologue combo is simply huge to my eyes and ears.
Midi layering them can take you to some real goose bump places and sequencing it with the Kronos is going to be awesome.
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Lightbringer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they will be an awesome pair. Looking forward to hearing about it.

Hope I didn't inadvertently side track this post into 'where there's overlap'. I'm just an excited new Kronos owner. Smile

Even if the K could theoretically reproduce every sound the Prologue can make, in practice, I think the Prologue is going to lead to very different sonic territory just by nature of the design. The combo definitely piques my interest!
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Liviou2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:
Great discussion here. Smile

Liviou2004 wrote:
As the Kronos cutoff is controlled by a 128 steps setting, some could say Kronos is far from a true analog synth.
Not so sure, because there are the AMS MIXERS, with "Smoothing" setting, you can apply as a modulator to the cutoff frequency. That way you don't hear steps in modulation anymore. This is a really powerfull characteristic.


Do you think there's some kind of smoothing algorithm on the filter without even running it through the AMS Mixer smooth function? If I go to an init AL-1 patch, go into RT control mode and crank up resonance (knob 2) and sweep cutoff (knob 1), I don't really hear a zippering/stairstep effect.


Well, I don't think so but you're right : I can't say I hear some step without AMS Mixer Smoothing.

All in all, I'm quite sure the Prologue won't bring sounds the Kronos would be unable to play. But I could be wrong, of course.
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runningman67
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lightbringer wrote:

Hope I didn't inadvertently side track this post into 'where there's overlap'. I'm just an excited new Kronos owner. Smile


Well you bought the right one first. Very Happy

You won't be needing a Prologue anytime soon. The Kronos is 'the' beast.
The Prologue a supporting act for us owners that have had the Kronos for some years.
There will be overlap in some areas but I'm hoping to programme bespoke Analogue stuff, twiddling knobs. The Kronos is always going to be the foundation of my playing.
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CharlesFerraro
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
CharlesFerraro wrote:
Lightbringer wrote:
The third digital osc can be a wavetable oscillator, and I don't think the Kronos has that, at least that I've found. Wavetable synthesis could (possibly?) be approximated with single cycle waveforms in the K's wave sequencer with short crossfades, but haven't tried it yet.

Yeah the Kronos absolutely does wavetable stuff with the wave sequencer aspect of HD-1. It's difficult to approximate the programming of something as sophisticated as say, Codex, but it is possible nonetheless. I've cross programmed sounds from Codex into the K without a hitch.


I would like to see the result ( Programs/Combis using Al-1/Mod7) of sophisticated and/or deeper programming of Kronos.

I have to use HD-1 when it comes to Wave Sequencing. I'll post a new thread with further details.


Lightbringer wrote:
Great discussion here. Smile

CharlesFerraro wrote:
Yeah the Kronos absolutely does wavetable stuff with the wave sequencer aspect of HD-1. It's difficult to approximate the programming of something as sophisticated as say, Codex, but it is possible nonetheless. I've cross programmed sounds from Codex into the K without a hitch.


Ah, you've tried it out then! Good stuff. Yeah, crossfading is of course not the same as interpolation, but I would think for a good subset of wavetable type patches, the difference would be more semantic than audible.

That's exactly correct. In fact, the difference between wavetable, granular, and wave sequencing are all more or less semantic.

Lightbringer wrote:
I was originally thinking that the wave sequencing was a completely separate offline process, but it looks like you can turn 'run' off, and then AMS modulate position - so maybe control the "wavetable index" with an EG or LFO. Definitely need to spend some time exploring this. Looks awesome!

Right again. I'm surprised you were able to understand that much without trying it first hand!

Lightbringer wrote:
Have you seen Synthesis Technology WaveEdit? It's a nice piece of software for creating custom wave tables. They built it to create wave tables for their E352 and E370 [Eurorack] modules, but they generously made it free/open source. Might make for some real fun in the wave sequencer.

I have not seen that. VERY powerful. And yes, very useful for creating waveforms to load into a Wave Sequence. Never heard of the term 'posterization' for bit reduction but I'll take it. I guess it's a common term for visual effects but the same math applies to audio.
WOW in video #2 when he's applying varying amounts of transformations to each waveform in the table... That shouldn't be free. That's amazing.
Between what that can do, and what HALion6 can do... the future of wavetable and additive resynthesis is very bright.

Lightbringer wrote:
Liviou2004 wrote:
As the Kronos cutoff is controlled by a 128 steps setting, some could say Kronos is far from a true analog synth.
Not so sure, because there are the AMS MIXERS, with "Smoothing" setting, you can apply as a modulator to the cutoff frequency. That way you don't hear steps in modulation anymore. This is a really powerfull characteristic.


Do you think there's some kind of smoothing algorithm on the filter without even running it through the AMS Mixer smooth function? If I go to an init AL-1 patch, go into RT control mode and crank up resonance (knob 2) and sweep cutoff (knob 1), I don't really hear a zippering/stairstep effect.

There's definitely an interpolation algorithm. Fun fact, the MMT engine tunes each position of it's 8bit filter steps to chromatic notes. Always thought that was neat. The Kronos does not behave the same way though.

Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:
Even, after 7 yrs of popularity, I don't see where Kronos has been thoroughly
exploited, as in expertly programmed with the Al-1/Mod7 engines + wave sequencing.


Couldn't agree more. Good gravy, MOD-7 is such a monster synth architecture. You could probably spend a lifetime making new patches and never run out of possibilities.

I'm definitely looking forward to going deep into the K's synth engines. Happy to share any successes here. Would love to get some new 'buzz' going here despite the K being 7 years old. Hope I'm not being naive, but I think there's tons of new territory left.

Agree 100% 👍
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GregC
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlesFerraro wrote:
[

I would like to see the result ( Programs/Combis using Al-1/Mod7) of sophisticated and/or deeper programming of Kronos.

I have to use HD-1 when it comes to Wave Sequencing. I'll post a new thread with further details.



CharlesFerraro wrote:
Yeah the Kronos absolutely does wavetable stuff with the wave sequencer aspect of HD-1. It's difficult to approximate the programming of something as sophisticated as say, Codex, but it is possible nonetheless. I've cross programmed sounds from Codex into the K without a hitch.




Lightbringer wrote:
GregC wrote:
Even, after 7 yrs of popularity, I don't see where Kronos has been thoroughly
exploited, as in expertly programmed with the Al-1/Mod7 engines + wave sequencing.


Couldn't agree more. Good gravy, MOD-7 is such a monster synth architecture. You could probably spend a lifetime making new patches and never run out of possibilities.

I'm definitely looking forward to going deep into the K's synth engines. Happy to share any successes here. Would love to get some new 'buzz' going here despite the K being 7 years old. Hope I'm not being naive, but I think there's tons of new territory left.

Agree 100% 👍[/quote]

Charles, I think its great you are wrapping your brain around Mod-7.

I don't have the skill or patience but know how important it is that we see
something significant from Mod-7. I also think it might be a business opportunity since creative musicians are always considering new expensive synths.

Since Kronos has a loyal user base, it would seem to follow, that many of us would greatly benefit from further development of Mod-7
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magname



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
Any update about this topis of kronos owner that tried/got the prologue ?
Regards
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Kronos is the best thing since, well, everything! Having just seen the Who last night here in Toronto and getting to watch Loren Gold play his K88 on the screen and just HEARING the sheer beauty of his piano sound, well it brought tears to my Wife's eyes!

My thing is, I really need to get a good handle on the step sequencer. Among many many other things.
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