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No countdown? - No new Korg workstation!
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Sharp
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's laptops and software killing the need for workstations


The problem is evolution baby. The PC and VST market has evolved at a rate countless times faster than hardware workstations.

Your average workstation is on a 6 year product cycle. These days a turtle with two broken legs moves faster.

That being said, if anyone can close the gap it's KORG. No better company to do it. We will see soon enough hopefully.

Sharp.
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Derek Cook
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Devnor wrote:
It's laptops and software killing the need for workstations. At this point, I'm not sure I'm willing to drop $4000 for the next gen workstation that gets you what, maybe double the poly, a few new bells & whistles and a fancy new case.


That is why I have pulled the drawbridge up with the Kronos and Montage as probably my last ver hardware purchases (but never say never!) and then made a heavy investment in an NUC PC that can host all of my VSTIs. Best of three worlds Smile
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koekepan wrote:
The big problem that I see is that KORG is one persuasive kickstarter away from a really compelling competitor.

I mean, that wouldn't be a problem for the purchasing public. It'd be great! But for KORG it'd be a problem.

So far they've been lucky that their keyboard workstation competition has been pretty sad. Kurzweil have been silent for ages. Yamaha and Roland are producing things that act more like heavily juiced MIDI controllers with performance capabilities, than actual standalone workstations.

AKAI Pro are the dark horse here, but they lack the synthesis capabilities of the Kronos.

A multi-core ARM CPU can deliver a lot of synthesis power these days, and there's a lot of efficient software that could put it to very good use, including some breathtakingly beautiful presets (sunvox springs to mind, but there are surely others, such as tracktion).

A keyboard, some control knobs, a touchscreen, and you're practically there. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Behringer put on their collective thinking cap and put it out, if only as an aura product.


Kurzweil has been silent indeed, but they have been working hard to turn the Forte from a stagepiano into a workstation. Software version 3.0 will be around at NAMM adding a fullfledged sequencer to the Forte..

And all the rest, left the workstation theatre
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Broadwave
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it must be my age, but I'm not so hung up on new gear coming out these days... or maybe I'm just content with what I have.

If I've learned one thing in the past 5 decades, it's stop waiting for your dream synth and do the best with what you have.

I've had a Kronos of some sort from day one, and I still haven't figured it out completely. I find something new to surprise me everyday.

It's a hard act to follow.
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broadwave wrote:
I think it must be my age, but I'm not so hung up on new gear coming out these days... or maybe I'm just content with what I have.

If I've learned one thing in the past 5 decades, it's stop waiting for your dream synth and do the best with what you have.

I've had a Kronos of some sort from day one, and I still haven't figured it out completely. I find something new to surprise me everyday.

It's a hard act to follow.


you have a good variety of gear.

I am getting good diversity from my Kronos, writing/recording a variety of Songs using just that.

I am running into limits on the SEQ so I hope to solve that by combining platforms and using cubase.

Tech is definitely our friend for many years, esp given what we can achieve in a home studio environment.
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
And all the rest, left the workstation theatre

But maybe not permanently?
Yamaha had a lot of feedback from Motif users concerning the features they feel are missing on the purported successor of the Motif, the Montage.

And Roland has proprietary technologies spread across different product lines which could make their way into a new workstation.
Besides that, this year it's exactly ten years since the Fantom G was introduced.

On the other hand, I haven't heard about any leak of either company thusfar nor are there any teasers...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jan1 wrote:
Bachus wrote:
And all the rest, left the workstation theatre

But maybe not permanently?
Yamaha had a lot of feedback from Motif users concerning the features they feel are missing on the purported successor of the Motif, the Montage.

And Roland has proprietary technologies spread across different product lines which could make their way into a new workstation.
Besides that, this year it's exactly ten years since the Fantom G was introduced.

On the other hand, I haven't heard about any leak of either company thusfar nor are there any teasers...


As a Montage owner, I think Yamaha got the Montage feature set about right. I didn't need to shell out for yet more workstation features that I will never use, and it complements the Kronos quite nicely in terms of sound and features. Smile

One thing, mind, after three years of Kronos ownership, which has a fairly logical and well laid out UI, it's been a bit of shock to go back to Yamaha and one of the most convoluted UIs I have ever seen for accessing some features. For example to access certain menus, you need to click in the performance name box, which I would normally only do when wanting to change the name!

In terms of no new successor to the Kronos, I am kinda glad, because it means I still have the top flight Korg, which I still have plenty to learn upon. Smile
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jan1 wrote:
Bachus wrote:
And all the rest, left the workstation theatre

But maybe not permanently?


And Roland has proprietary technologies spread across different product lines which could make their way into a new workstation.
Besides that, this year it's exactly ten years since the Fantom G was introduced.

..


some are overlooking Rolands FA workstation.
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ahutnick
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurzweil has done a lot of updates for the Forte the past couple of years. Definitely not just a stage piano anymore.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Jan1 wrote:
Bachus wrote:
And all the rest, left the workstation theatre

But maybe not permanently?


And Roland has proprietary technologies spread across different product lines which could make their way into a new workstation.
Besides that, this year it's exactly ten years since the Fantom G was introduced.

..


some are overlooking Rolands FA workstation.


Yes i am, reason?
I think its middel of the road.. a bit workstation, a bit performance synth and a bit stagepiano... and despite that missing to many features to be an all in one...
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GregC
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
GregC wrote:
Jan1 wrote:
Bachus wrote:
And all the rest, left the workstation theatre

But maybe not permanently?


And Roland has proprietary technologies spread across different product lines which could make their way into a new workstation.
Besides that, this year it's exactly ten years since the Fantom G was introduced.

..


some are overlooking Rolands FA workstation.


Yes i am, reason?
I think its middel of the road.. a bit workstation, a bit performance synth and a bit stagepiano... and despite that missing to many features to be an all in one...


its somewhat of a budget w/s. I know of gigging keyboardists that use it cleverly.

I also think Roland knew their buyers priority was DAW integration. The Axial site of free sounds is terrific. I notice that some keyboardists ask for features but then never use them.

Roland also has improved their support.

For example, the FA is not much of a midi controller. Personally thats a low priority for me. Forget the 61. Lack of an editor is annoying but not a deal breaker IMO.

Since FA is somewhat budget, what 2 things is it missing that you cannot live without ?
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GregC wrote:
Bachus wrote:
GregC wrote:
Jan1 wrote:
Bachus wrote:
And all the rest, left the workstation theatre

But maybe not permanently?


And Roland has proprietary technologies spread across different product lines which could make their way into a new workstation.
Besides that, this year it's exactly ten years since the Fantom G was introduced.

..


some are overlooking Rolands FA workstation.


Yes i am, reason?
I think its middel of the road.. a bit workstation, a bit performance synth and a bit stagepiano... and despite that missing to many features to be an all in one...


its somewhat of a budget w/s. I know of gigging keyboardists that use it cleverly.

I also think Roland knew their buyers priority was DAW integration. The Axial site of free sounds is terrific. I notice that some keyboardists ask for features but then never use them.

Roland also has improved their support.

For example, the FA is not much of a midi controller. Personally thats a low priority for me. Forget the 61. Lack of an editor is annoying but not a deal breaker IMO.

Since FA is somewhat budget, what 2 things is it missing that you cannot live without ?


First there is on thing i can lot live with and thats the keybed action, the FA08 is below average, and i hate the FA06 action.

Then there is sampler, its a nice tool, but you can not create your own soundsets and there is no user memory for loading user samples. A big no, if the FA is your only key. its limited expandabillity.

Then there is the fact that there is only a single arpeggiator, i tend to use arps for creating backings, and then a single arp is to thin. Again a big no if it is my only key..

Thats 2.. but its more in the sum of things...

--------------------------

Like Another minus is that there are only Synth and keyboard super natural sounds on board.. not the ones i would like to use like the brass, sax and such (those are on the integra7 and the JP80)

No sliders/drawbars for playing Organ

I also miss the live sets from the JP80, which is a small nifty feature and has the abbility to to take a set of 4 sounds much much further then just 4 sounds, but thats nitpicking as not many keyboards have such..

Then there is the fact that there is no aftertouch, and having it as a single keyboard, would require aftertouch because thats something i actually use a lot, espescially when playing orchestral acoustic instruments and synths..

There is more.. if i think hard i will remember them.. but i never owned the FA series, i decided back then to buy an Integra 7 for those incredible Roland sounds i have allways loved and do so on the FA series.

-----------------

Don't get me wrong, for the money its a great instrument if you can live with the action. But there is to much missing compared to my current instrument(s)

I also can see how this key just works on stage for many people, because all the standard things are there..
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me the top vendors and manufacturers don’t make enough return on their R&D to release workstations as that market has shrunk considerably due to the reliability of the DAW in the last ten years. That’s why a lot of these companies bring out slight tweaks to what they already have specially Korg with the Kronos which in itself contains the majority of synth engines from ten years ago on the Oasys and M3 and added their plugins into what is basically a linux based PC inside a metal chassis. All the sounds hold up really well and their build quality has improved since the first Kronos workstations were awful for the price.

Roland got it right 6 years ago with the Jupiter 80 with saying people don’t need workstations anymore but more of a performance synth. The issue i always have with Roland is they have great sounds, come up with great ideas but then release half of the idea and never finish developing their products. The Jupiter’s being a performance synth if they rehoused the engine into something with more real-time controls with the build quality they would have sold more units but using the Jupiter name was always going to be a challenge and they didn’t get it quite right and stopped development within 2 years of release.

Yamaha have it right also with the Montage, problem is again they haven’t done a lot with the AWM2 synth engine to warrant Motif XF owners to upgrade. These days if your investing the 3,000 it takes to buy one of these they need to last for 5 or 6 years so people don’t upgrade so quick. This is why manufacturers sell more units by making their products sound good at a cheaper price which then they compromise on build quality.
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skinmechanic wrote:
Roland got it right 6 years ago with the Jupiter 80 with saying people don’t need workstations anymore but more of a performance synth.
...
Yamaha have it right also with the Montage

I don't think either Roland or Yamaha got it right, quite the contrary.
That perspective is one of DAW vs hardware workstation, and as I have tried to make clear several times in the past, you really cannot compare the two. At least, not yet.

A DAW takes time, large libraries take quite some time to load, there's a far more complex dimension of routing and logistics to consider, chances are something does not go quite right, etc, etc.
It's excellent for working out arrangements to the final production, and there is absolutely nothing in hardware that can compete with some of the specialized libraries I have at my disposal.

But when it comes to a musical intuitive interaction with quick results without anything getting in the way of the flow of inspiration a hardware workstation is unbeatable.
It is not one vs. the other, but one plus the other.
That's where both companies missed the mark if they truly believed the workstation to be dinasaur of the past.

This may change in the future, especially when I look at how manufacturers are working on the interface with the software and when I consider the advent of non volatile RAM (Intel's Optane).
Once the latter begins to appear in theorder of Terabytes and lowers in price, the DAW, together with the improved UI, will truly be a great allround tool.
But that day is still in the future.
And by the way, non volatile RAM is something the KRONOS could also benefit from in terms of a dramatically reduced boot up time.

Aside from all that, I know musicians who simply hate the computer and the complexity of the DAW.
They hate the visual oriented interaction and want knobs, sliders, and doing it by ear.
I totally understand that.

So I don't know to what extent both companies still believe in that notion.
On top of that, didn't Roland release the midrange FA with a very nice intuitive sequencer after the JP80?

As far as the cost of R&D is concerned, if I take Roland as an example, they have spread out their R&D for different products and technologies across different product lines, so it is not as if they have to start from scratch if they wanted to bring a new workstation to market.
That company has a lot of proprietary technology they could use to their advantage.

Whether or not this is going to happen is something I don't know.
If they believe the workstation is dead, no.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Started with DAW's long time back and eventually moved to the kronos workstation.
but that does not mean I don't use Daw, in-fact few days I bought ableton suite and push 2. (and I can do a lot on push 2 without looking at the puter screen or using the keyboard/mouse combo).

To that I added an iConnectAudio4+ audio interface to my setup so I can use two computers / or Ipad and Daw along with my kronos passing audio to each other etc.
I still have to set all up properly (Only get about weekends for my music).

There is a lot can be done when/if you combine the two, rather than if one is better or the other.
Any Modern workstation is in a nutshell a Hardware/software overlay over a computer., be it Kronos,The New Akai MPC's or Abletons or any other with their dedicated control surfaces. Some have the computer and surface integrated and some don't.
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