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Korg Kronos LS?
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Joe Gerardi
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 534
Location: Savannah, GA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was talking about the "big words" like "musicianship" being used in the same sentence as "ability to play music, not the ability to press a button and let something else do the work for you". That's such a narrow-minded view in today's day and age, man.


Bullshit. Plain and simple. take several classic keyboard tunes by keyboard giants, and they played everything. Rick Wakeman, Emo, Tony Banks. Eddie Jobson, Tony Kaye. Hell, ever Daryl Dragon or Richard Carpenter. They covered everything.

It's because of "musicianship." Yes, I said it again. It AIN'T a "big" word, it's the core foundation of playing. There was a time when people learned how to play, and played everything. Now, they let the technology do it for them in the quest to be famous. There are no shortcuts to playing technically well and capably.

Quote:
Why should something that you record and use as a backing track be any less valuable then the things you're playing live, if it helps the song and enhances the experience for people listening to it?


So, there was no issue then when Milli Vanilli was lip-syncing on stage to pre-recoded music performed by others?

When does it stop being a backing track and become a fake performance? Tomorrow I go to see the Rach 3- the piece I performed as my final as a Sophomore in college - and I see it live rather than listed to a "pre-recorded" piece, because of its technical difficulty, the dynamic and tonal interpretation of the performer, the different timbre created by that particular conductor's vision of the piece. In other words, the "musicianship" of the performers. Were the pianist just play to a pre-recorded orchestral backing track, then it would just plain suck. hell, I could do that myself (with a lot of practice) and tape it, but why? It would be a flat, dead recording.

Look,you're free to do whatever you want. Someone wants to say they're playing "Mama" on one keyboard, when they're actually only accompanying themself to pre-recorded keyboard karaoke music? Be my guest. At the same time, I'm free to call it a rip-off hack musician who hasn't the chops to actually do the work they're advertising themself to do, and lying to everyone...

Especially him/herself.

..Joe
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Current setup: Korg Kronos 61, Roland XV-88 Korg Triton-Rack, Motif-Rack, Korg N1r, Roland M-GS64, Alesis QSR, Yamaha KX88 & KX76, Roland Super-JX, Juno-Stage, Kawai K4, Kawai K1II.
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Scott
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Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 1013

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Gerardi wrote:
take several classic keyboard tunes by keyboard giants, and they played everything. Rick Wakeman, Emo, Tony Banks. Eddie Jobson, Tony Kaye. Hell, ever Daryl Dragon or Richard Carpenter. They covered everything.

OTOH, sometimes because of overdubs (or multiple players), it is actually impossible for anyone to cover everything that's on the recording. So then, some of the art of the performance, so to speak, is making the decision of what to leave out, or how to adapt a part so as to "kind of" cover more than can actually be played. Ironically, sometimes this played to the piece's advantage, IMO. I actually preferred the live Yessongs version of Close to the Edge over the studio album, because it was just a little more "open," less dense/cluttered. Not every crevice was filled with sound, it gave the piece a little more room to breathe. But I digress...

An interesting question is to what extent these players necessarily did this out of a similar philosophy as yours, versus simply not having the tools to do otherwise. Okay, one could always play to tape (which had its own issues), but short of that, there were not always the tools available to trigger sequences/samples on the fly from a key or pad, or some of the other facilities we have today to synchronize and manipulate tempos on such things. Note the aforementioned example of Jordan Rudess programming in some of what was going on in Tarkus. Rick Wakeman had some pre-programmed stuff in the ARW show, too. Check this clip starting at about 3:30 - the entire intro to the song is pre-recorded or sequenced, I don't know why, he's not even playing to it! But at least it's not deceiving. Wink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqkKoPj-y3k

Still, in terms of an overall philosophy, I'd say that programming certain things because you want to present something that is simply beyond what one human can play or for some other reason is perhaps different from programming certain things in just because you've run out of keys and don't feel like bringing a second keyboard.
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vEddY
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 1263
Location: Zagreb

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Gerardi wrote:

Bullshit. Plain and simple. take several classic keyboard tunes by keyboard giants, and they played everything. Rick Wakeman, Emo, Tony Banks. Eddie Jobson, Tony Kaye. Hell, ever Daryl Dragon or Richard Carpenter. They covered everything.

It's because of "musicianship." Yes, I said it again. It AIN'T a "big" word, it's the core foundation of playing. There was a time when people learned how to play, and played everything. Now, they let the technology do it for them in the quest to be famous. There are no shortcuts to playing technically well and capably.


Man, you can be as big a "musician" and posess as much "musicianship" as you want, and have two keyboards, three keyboards, or whatever, but that is not going to solve the problem of having two hands which can play. If you record 20 tracks of synths in one song, no amount of keyboards and what you refer to as "chops" will be able to take care of that. You'll either use backing tracks or hire 2-3 more keyboardists to do that. The second choice is - I'm afraid - not really viable in most cases.

You can hardly consider the list of bands I mentioned to be on a "quest to be famous". Most of them have been famous (maybe not as important) and very well liked/successful (a bit more important) for decades. Like it or not, they've been much more successful then both you and I. And I'm sorry, but I do think all of them are the better yardstick to be taken seriously on a professional level as successful musicians then whatever you might say and/or write here. It's nothing personal - it's just a difference of opinion. There's a reason why they're trying to incorporate backing tracks in their live shows. I know you dislike that. But it's still a fact that every single one of those bands/artists (and many more) are doing it.

Joe Gerardi wrote:

So, there was no issue then when Milli Vanilli was lip-syncing on stage to pre-recoded music performed by others?

When does it stop being a backing track and become a fake performance? Tomorrow I go to see the Rach 3- the piece I performed as my final as a Sophomore in college - and I see it live rather than listed to a "pre-recorded" piece, because of its technical difficulty, the dynamic and tonal interpretation of the performer, the different timbre created by that particular conductor's vision of the piece. In other words, the "musicianship" of the performers. Were the pianist just play to a pre-recorded orchestral backing track, then it would just plain suck. hell, I could do that myself (with a lot of practice) and tape it, but why? It would be a flat, dead recording.


Now you're just putting words I did not use in my mouth. I specifically said that lip-sync is a no-no. And I specifically used the term "augment" multiple times to get my point across. So, let's recap, once more (sigh).

When does it stop being a backing track and become a fake performance? When backing tracks aren't being used to "augment" the experience of live show (because of impossibility of something to be played live due to lack of hands, musicians, whatever), and when that "develops" in the direction of "ah, yeah, let's just play 20 backing tracks so that every musician can play nothing or next to nothing". I do feel that I adequately described what I feel should be the "limit" for that.

And, believe it or not, chops are less important then you think. If two notes on any instrument being repeated for 40 seconds fit the music/song, then that's what should be played. It's about the song and music(ianship), not outright prowess. What good comes out of the fact that I can play anything Rudess plays, if I don't feel that it fits the song? And how does that help my own musicianship and ability to create my own music?

If you ask me - except for teaching me what not to do, in no way whatsoever. And I'm saying that as a huge DT fan, until Mike Portnoy left, at least. Because I agree with him that they kind of lost their way.

Just to use one example - not by any means my favourite one, but still a viable example. Look at what The Edge has been doing with his guitar arrangements all his life. He might or might not have the technical chops, but he's definitely not using them. His guitarwork, on the other hand, is just excellent within the confines of pretty much any U2 song, however sucky it may be (a song, and there are dozens of crappy U2 songs). Are you saying that U2 is a crappy band because they use backing tracks? Because millions of people will disagree.

Now, the second reason I used U2 as an example - if I remember correctly, they did a complete Zooropa tour with playback, everyone knows that. That's just plain stupid, un-musician-like, and everything else you said, and they should be lambasted for that. No argument from me. But - counterpoint to that - U2 Elevation tour - that's a shining example of how backing tracks should be used.

You're just over-generalizing and over-dramatizing things.
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Last edited by vEddY on Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:14 pm; edited 10 times in total
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vEddY
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 1263
Location: Zagreb

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott wrote:

OTOH, sometimes because of overdubs (or multiple players), it is actually impossible for anyone to cover everything that's on the recording. So then, some of the art of the performance, so to speak, is making the decision of what to leave out, or how to adapt a part so as to "kind of" cover more than can actually be played. Ironically, sometimes this played to the piece's advantage, IMO. I actually preferred the live Yessongs version of Close to the Edge over the studio album, because it was just a little more "open," less dense/cluttered. Not every crevice was filled with sound, it gave the piece a little more room to breathe. But I digress...

Hear, hear. I absolutely agree.
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Personally? LPI. RHCE, RHCI, RHCX, RHCVA. MCITP 2008 certification done. MCITP Virtualization Administrator done. MCITP Exchange 2010 done. MCITP MS SQL 2008 done. MCT done. MCSE Server Infrastructure 2012, MCSE: Private Cloud, MCSE:Messaging and MCSE: Desktop Infrastructure done. VCP5-DV done. VCI done. MCITP: Sharepoint 2010 Administrator done. VCP5-Cloud done. VCP5-DT done. VCAP5-DCA done. VCP6-DCV done.
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drama1
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 662

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see Sweetwater has the LS in stock. Interested to hear thoughts on the action of this latest Kronos incarnation.
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SoulBe
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Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 499
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi drama 1,

I bought the LS and I am comfortable with the key action. It is a little bit heavier than the OASYS 76 action and you can play synth / organ as well as piano sounds quite well. So for me it fits perfectly. I replaced my gigging combination of Oasys 76 and Motif 8 Es with the LS and an arturia keylab 49, so now I have to carry about 20 kg instead of about 50 kg.
For practising I still rely on my P80.
So after all you have to try the action on your own to find out if it fits.

best regards
SoulBe
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drama1
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, Soulbe. Gonna give it a go asap.
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