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NAMM 2017 Surprise
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Koekepan
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Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 447

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fcoulter wrote:
Do you mean ever, or at NAMM 2017?

If you mean NAMM 2017, only a sucker would bet against you. First, Korg's already made their announcements. Second, without someone else competing with the Kronos, there is no reason for Korg to do anything other than incremental improvements.


Tough call. Apparently there's an outstanding announcement, courtesy of mr Hotop.

And, depending on how you look at it, the MPC Live/X is competition up to a point. Granted, it doesn't do all the synthesis engines, but it does a lot of what the Kronos does, and some other things besides.

fcoulter wrote:
If you mean ever, then the problem would be collecting the bet. You will never collect the money from me if I bet you because I can always say "wait for next year." The only money that will ever transfer is when (if) Korg does do something that qualifies. At that point, you'll owe me.

I suppose that if Korg discontinues the Kronos and doesn't replace it within a year or two, then you'd have a good argument that you won. But that would take years. (How many of the new spectrum series Kronos can Korg sell?)


I smell an opportunity for a barroom bookmaker.
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synthguy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilDragon wrote:
synthguy wrote:
(memo to EvilDragon, use what works)

Of course, that's a given, man! When TR-Rack doesn't work (and I really use it for those lush pads and motion synths, since that's what it's best for), I have... FS1R, K5000R, Microwave I, JD-990, MKS-70, Blofeld, N1R, PC3K8... and a heap of VSTi... and some of those VSTi do hardsync better than any hardware VA Smile

As for PWM aliasing on Roland's SN synth... remember this thread? http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=48093 Smile

Hmm... a nearly three year old thread. Last post in August 2014. I can see that debate is still on fire. Wink

I dunno, maybe Roland did some updating of their synths since then, reprogrammed their patches to use the better pulse waves or something. I can't say I really noticed anything ugly except as I posted, and I had to isolate an initialized Tone.

I must add that if this is your criteria of unacceptable, I'd have to include some renown and still desirable synths in the discard pile, like the JP-8000, KORG Z1, some of Yamaha's DX synths, Casio CZs, some of the sought after Fairlights and Synclaviers, a bunch of the Ensoniqs which are still showing up on albums on rare occasion... maybe even that JD-990? I seem to recall almost every digital synth and sampler exhibiting aliasing at non-supersonic range in Keyboard reviews, so... what? Dump everything prior to the year 2005 or later because it might not sound pretty at the top of the piano range? You first.

Quote:
(And now as I read additionally, looks like PWM aliasing happens on waveforms nicked from Gaia (and MUCH earlier than G#8 - also is this with C4 being middle C or?), which were all (sic) sampled. Why would Roland do such a ghastly decision and depreciate their more expensive boards with stuff from their cheaper range that is just not nearly as good is beyond me... doing PWM and supersaw with samples is just borderline insulting IMHO.)

Well, let's assume that Roland has no modeled anything in their SN synth lineup. My rather lengthy essay on that subject is

So? Wink

Suppose Roland has resorted to some sort of software shenanigans to accomplish pulse width modulation and other waveshaping. Wavetables or whatever you care to mention. The question is, if the result sounds the same as oscillator modeling, behaves the same as modeling, programs the same as modeling, plays and records the same as modeling, what difference does it make? If I can select rectangle waves of whatever duty cycle I want to program Oberheim, ARP, CS-80 or Jupiter patches, something I can't do on a rompler, is the point to make a patch the way I want so I can make music I want with it? Or to insist on a certain method of synthesis to do it? Or to use it as an argument bullet point in a partisan fashion?

Let me tell you what annoys me. I played a KingKORG last year, and was enjoying the sound of the beastie, when I played some chords and heard the jarring sound of oscillators beginning in sync at the start of the notes. That's a sound that has nothing to do with key ranges to avoid unpleasantries, it's every note, like a rompler. Hmm... not cool. I know the KK isn't a rompler because it has PWM and hard sync OSCs. I poked around and couldn't find the oscillator waveform start parameter. I decided to go home and download the manual and... darn if it doesn't say a word about it, as if is used nothing but free running oscillators. I googled around and couldn't find any mention online about it. I wondered if maybe it's a certain oscillator type or something, but I'm pretty sure the saw wave is generic. I wondered if the machine I plonked on came from the factory misconfigured or something. Then I caught a YT demo of it doing the same thing. I'm not sure what to make of that, but one thing I'm not going to do is go on message board crusades about it because I don't need one, and those that do have one, it evidently doesn't bother them. So why should I? I think this is the right attitude.

It's one thing to say that you prefer a KORG sound or a Prophet or Nord sound or like Yamaha's AWM2 sample playback engine which makes Kurz's VAST technology sound like mp3s. But to say that a family of musical instruments is no good because you don't like their method of synthesis in the face of some superb musical examples, sounds like you're insisting "I'm biased and I don't care."

Which, awesome, I don't either. I guess we can bury this horse now. Wink

I think what everyone can agree on is that making music with our chosen toys is what matters. And being able to expand our toybox with new toys this year would be awesome. Maybe we should talk about that instead. Smile
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SeedyLee
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: Perth, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Nolan wrote:
Timo wrote:
Kevin Nolan wrote:
But rest assured - you will not see a new OASYS or Kronos from Korg - as said - they literally have no development plan for that, the world is not waiting for it, and the world will not buy it if released.

blah blah blah...

In short, Kronos .... it's a dead paradigm and Korg are not committing to the future of the "Workstation"


Absolute waffle, and extremely short sighted.

Workstations can and will evolve, I'm sure you will see. ...As soon as they gain an internet connection and an app-based ecosystem along with cloud storage. That would be my vision for a future workstation, and it's entirely valid.

Kevin, you speak merely for yourself. Do not speak on behalf of others, you are not entitled to do so.




Back on topic - there will be no workstation surprises in NAMM 2017 from Korg. I'm even happy to wager $10 with anyone here that there well be no more workstations from Korg with radical developments (all the suggested developments here are already in Gadget and a thousand apps costing $3.99)


I hope you're wrong, Kevin. Despite having a pretty beefy computer and software capable of driving 128 channels of MIDI, VSTs and 28 hardware audio tracks, I still turn to my Kronos for composing. There's a lot of reasons, but mostly it just works, it's rock solid (comparatively speaking), the timing and latency are better than any PC system - and it's simply more inspiring.

DAWs are great for mixing and editing, not so great as an expressive musical instrument.
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Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kong doesn't need to compete with other manufacturers or paradigms: they have a loyal fanbase of existing workstation users who are constantly looking to upgrade. They have already invested the R&D in a scalable platform that can be easily extended.

All they need to do is bring out another Kronos with more memory and a faster processor, and people will flock to it.

Apple have basically been doing the same thing with the iPhone for years now - through incremental improvements to hardware and software, they have a constant revenue stream from existing users. They don't need to necessarily grow their market share to turn a decent profit.
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Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 61, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW1600 Monotron, , Roland JV-80 & JV-1080 Kawai L1, Lexicon MX200,

Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roland also is teasing with 'something' that has 88 keys as evidenced by these pictures posted by an alert viewer of Roland's 360 test stream on GS:


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afr
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Joined: 07 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like a new RD piano

Last edited by afr on Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fcoulter
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Joined: 31 Jul 2015
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Location: Central Florida

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koekepan wrote:
Apparently there's an outstanding announcement, courtesy of mr Hotop.

And, depending on how you look at it, the MPC Live/X is competition up to a point. Granted, it doesn't do all the synthesis engines, but it does a lot of what the Kronos does, and some other things besides.


I suppose the possibility of an outstanding announcement may make the bet viable, but I'd want odds, not just straight money. Even then, I don't see the advantage for Korg to significantly up their game at this point.

As for the MPC Live/X, I'm kinda wedded to those black and white switches at the front of the box. On the other hand, for people more flexible than me, it might be great.
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Korg: Kronos2 88
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Koekepan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The AKAI Live and X have MIDI ports, and host USB as well, so you could hook up your Quneo, Rise, Linnstrument or whatever, and if you want an external sound source, push it to your Blofeld, Virus or monster stack of Volcas.

Maybe KORG will be selling a limited run of Volca-sized hardware versions of their Gadgets? And a rack to hold them in? Be still, my beating heart.
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Jan1
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afr wrote:
looks like a new RD piano

When I compared it to a picture of the VR-09 I could not help but notice a resemblance between the two.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jan1 wrote:
Roland also is teasing with 'something' that has 88 keys as evidenced by these pictures posted by an alert viewer of Roland's 360 test stream on GS:




Could be a new fantom..
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wma
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachus wrote:
Jan1 wrote:
Roland also is teasing with 'something' that has 88 keys as evidenced by these pictures posted by an alert viewer of Roland's 360 test stream on GS:




Could be a new fantom..


yep, could be a flagship combining hybrid synth w/ stage piano

the rd800 had price drope for some time, and at the left of the keyboards there's a joystick and above it looks as two wheels

and it has 8 knobs & multiple displays , more than two, maybe touch screens

it's a flagship keyboards, workstation
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Bertotti
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been hopeful some of the big synth guys would team with Roli and have that seabird style interface and a Kronos style workstation combined. I can dream.
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gjvti
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bertotti wrote:
I have been hopeful some of the big synth guys would team with Roli and have that seabird style interface and a Kronos style workstation combined. I can dream.
oh, yes, but honestly i would still very much prefer separate desktop module/desktop/tablet so i can choose what type of controller i need for particular performance.
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Bachus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bertotti wrote:
I have been hopeful some of the big synth guys would team with Roli and have that seabird style interface and a Kronos style workstation combined. I can dream.


Isnt the Roli interface highly overrated for a trained piano player.... i could not get used to it... however i think i would like a keybed with touchsensitive keysurface, it should yield near to the same results and still have the action we are used to...
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Bertotti
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjvti wrote:
Bertotti wrote:
I have been hopeful some of the big synth guys would team with Roli and have that seabird style interface and a Kronos style workstation combined. I can dream.
oh, yes, but honestly i would still very much prefer separate desktop module/desktop/tablet so i can choose what type of controller i need for particular performance.


That would be perfectly fine with me as well!
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