 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| StephenKay wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | apex wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | amit wrote: | Sorry don't know about the cue mode, but have you tried modstep for ipad?
it's very powerful pattern based and midi triggerable patterns (like ableton live for midi).
However if you want to program patterns and also arrange them then there is another app called "midi patterns" that has seq mode but not midi triggerable. |
I have modstep. I find it good, but not exactly intuitive UI. After years of sequencing on Korg boxes, I like the Korg sequencing workflow. Its just that Oasys/Kronos dropped the all important Cue mode! At least it was important to me and my workflow. |
Didn't the cue mode have major timing issues when trying to put cues of songs together? |
Not in my experience, and definitely not once you bounced it down to a final mix. |
In my experience, I found it unusable. There are definitely timing issues and hiccups when you attempt to link song sections that have different effects. Unless you keep the EXACT same effects, you will get timing glitches.
When I was working on the M3 demo sequence "KARMA-fied!", which is essentially 9 or so completely different songs all linked together with a swoosh noise between each one, I tried to do it with the cue list. Each song had completely different effects. It proved to be unworkable. I documented it and complained to Korg and there were many discussions back and forth, but ultimately, their position was "that's as good as it gets, too much happening when you change a section and all the effects are changing."
So I ended up having to make one long linear song, and change the effects within the song at different times using sysex. What a pain that was! And also, you had to make sure to stagger the effects changes at different times. Trying to do them all at a particular beat in the song would cause the same kind of timing glitches.
The same goes for program changes - if you try to do 16 program changes all on a particular beat on 16 tracks, you'll get a timing hiccup. You have to stagger them.
Actually, even with the linear method, if I recall correctly the whole reason I went with the swoosh noises was to give myself time to change all of the effects and programs without anyone noticing. I was originally going to abruptly switch from one song to the next, but it wasn't possible.
I guess it depends how tolerant you are of little timing inconsistencies. YMMV.  |
Hi Stephen. Yes I've read your comments on this topic in other posts. I totally respect your experience. But I've simply not had that level of a problem w cue list arranging. Perhaps I'm not pushing it as hard as you have (less tracks, or less abrupt effects changes). But for me it works good. The song I posted above (link) is a good example. About a dozen "songs" in a cue list all changing programs and effects on a single bar many times throughout the composition with no glitches. I will say that the MFX2 is almost always the Hall Reverb, in each "song", so there is continuity for a smooth transition. But the other effects (IFX) and programs are significantly changing in each pattern. I'm using maybe 6 to 8 programs per pattern.
Works for me consistently.
And yes your comments about what a pain using sysex for effects is, is exactly what led me to start this thread.
Thanks for your feedback very much!
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8.
Last edited by RonF on Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| amit wrote: | ronF, if in your shoes, i'd just get the trinity.
here's why :
1:It's tried and tested and it works for you. (so you don't have to go spending time learning or discovering things that don't do your way.)
2: It's likely gonna be cheaper that many hardware alternative`s.
3: I don't care if its old tech or not, as long as it delivers what is expected off it.
having said that:
I have spent quite a bit on ipad music Apps.
There are some really good ones but none has it all and all have their issues.
Hook (retronyms): The latest I got this, Lets you mix and mash audio loops, downside (no metronome/Click Track while recording input)
Modstep : has had issues being slave to kronos
midiPatterns (is hardcoded for GM/GX and XG only so have to filter out PC messages.
DAWs are Good, but I too tend to stay away if I can, I get too lost into DAW and features to be able to do anything creative.
however, Studio one 3 has exactly the functionality you want arranger tracks : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZALHeAeOjM4
Ableton, I do use at times but it has it's own set of issues and no sysex.
Same with Kronos: you can't edit the sysex in seq midi events.
RPPR is good and creative but there is no Group Mute (exclusive) thing
Found that RPPR with pads is the best multi track trick.
Would have loved to assign sysex to RPPR, but It lacks that so have to do that externally.
All I am trying to say here is that eveything has had it's set of issues, but they all work great for different people and their needs. |
Thank you! Yes your logic seems sound. And yes, I have yet to find a great match to the Kronos on iPad (other than LoopyHD, but that's something else altogether). Still searching.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SeedyLee wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: |
Again, if it works for you why not. I just couldn't imagine using a hardware sequencer/recorder, especially not one as limited as the Kronos (for that purpose). I still really love the board! |
The Wifi thing depends very much on the particular chipset and drivers. My previous Netgear using an Atheros chipset was appalling, wears my current TP-Link (which I think uses an Atheros as well?) is flawless.
As for software de-authorising, each vendor implements this differently, but in my case it's possibly due to a large number of "virtual" device changes related to running virtual machines and such. The argument is often made that a PC based setup is a cheap way to go, as most people already have a PC - but in my experience, you really need a dedicated machine that doesn't get fiddled with for anything els!
I did pick up a copy of SONAR Artist recently, and have been quite impressed with that. It's much more stable on Windows than Cubase ever has been. I'm finding it not too bad, but the effects are rather ordinary and as a consequence, I find myself running audio through the Kronos anyway - so I might as well just record it there
Don't get me wrong, it's not a case that I think my way is the right way and everyone else is wrong - I think PCs are phenomenally powerful for music creation, and the advent of VSTs made PCs a viable option to replace a studio full of equipment. It's just for me - and the gear I currently own - I love staying in the world of hardware and open standards, rather than having to worry about whether a particular VST 2x plugin is going to be compatible with a new VST 3 host that's 64-bit only and blah blah blah.
With hardware, I can plug a synth made in 1984 into my Kronos made in 2011, and run an audio cable between the two and be done with it.
Out of curiosity, in what way do you find the Kronos' sequencer limited? |
I completely agree that a PC is not the "cheap" way to go! I have invested a multitude of what my Kronos costs in my desktop and laptop with their interfaces, controllers and software.
The Kronos sequencer/workflow is limited to me because of many things, just off the top of my head:
1. Track count
2. Number of FX
3. No visual editing of midi or audio clips
4. No real multitracking (4 tracks maximum if you stretch it with an S/PDIF converter)
5. No alternative mix routing (separate headphone mix etc)
6. No take management (only overdubbing)
7. No Melodyne
8. No bussing
9. No phantom power
10. No video (I have read your workaround but in Sonar I just plunk it in)
And so on and so forth. That's even disregarding the quality of FX and instruments (some are better than others). These are just some of the things that I use on every project. The most I could use the Kronos for is to make a sketch, just quickly play a few tracks to get the outline of a song or something. But it seems pointless since I would end up switching to the computer anyway when I start to record vocals, drums, etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vEddY
Platinum Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 1263
Location: Zagreb
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Kronos owners: would you buy a Trinity? |
|
|
| RonF wrote: |
Thoughts? Anything else I perhaps should be considering?
|
Yes. You're having technical discussions about things that can be done in 1000 different ways (almost none of them being an user-friendly way), and a part of that discussion is a 20-year-old synth (Trinity). If we remove that from the equation, I think you should have a Trinity in your setup for a completely different set of reasons, i.e. sonic ones. It's just a perfect complement to KRONOS. Kronos is a punchy, cut-through synth, while Trinity is darker, which makes this a perfect combination. One that I use frequently in studio and live.
_________________
Check out http://it-review.net. Reviews and news - hardware, software and musical instruments.
Personally? LPI. RHCE, RHCI, RHCX, RHCVA. MCITP 2008 certification done. MCITP Virtualization Administrator done. MCITP Exchange 2010 done. MCITP MS SQL 2008 done. MCT done. MCSE Server Infrastructure 2012, MCSE: Private Cloud, MCSE:Messaging and MCSE: Desktop Infrastructure done. VCP5-DV done. VCI done. MCITP: Sharepoint 2010 Administrator done. VCP5-Cloud done. VCP5-DT done. VCAP5-DCA done. VCP6-DCV done. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
drb32856
Full Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
Posts: 119
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RonF wrote: | | jeremykeys wrote: | I can only speak for myself here but I really like the Kronos Sequencer. It took a while to figure it all out but after some effort it all came together for me.
I don't use it much anymore though. I have SSD issues. I've had them for quite some time and finally just said "the heck with it!"
Now I use Cubase 7.5.4. I love it. It just works for me. I generally don't use patterns except with the Kronos drum track and when I do, I just have it play into Cubase. I always set my BPM in Cubase to be the same as the drum track in my Kronos.
Sorry but I don't know anything at all about the Trinity sequencer. I have an old Triton Pro X but I never used the sequencer in it.
Good luck in your search though! |
Thanks much for your feedback!
Just to be clear...when I refer to "patterns", I'm not talking about a drum pattern, or repeating loop through a song. In fact, I imagine that you probably (yes, I'm assuming) DO use "patterns" when you compose in Cubase.
By "pattern"...I'm referring to a complete 16 track/channel (with full effects) section of an arrangement. Like a verse using one set of programs and effects, and a chorus using another set of programs and effects...each one is a separate "pattern" which then gets arranged in a "cue list".
On the M3, each "pattern" is called a "song". With the Cue List you can name each "song", for example, "verse 1", "verse 2", "breakdown 1", "chorus".....and then you can arrange the order of them, and how many times they will play. Its sort of like how NI Maschine works, for a modern example. Or like an Ensoniq ESQ-1 works, for a ubiquitous hardware example. You can get really quite creative with these "patterns" in the cue list....as each segment can have its own unique settings, programs, effects, tempo, length, etc. So a "song" on the Kronos is just ONE 16 track/channel linear canvas. On the M3 you could have dozens of the same....and then arrange these any way you want to compose your "song".
Kronos sequencer is great for what it is...but its seriously handicapped, creatively, without any arrangement facilities, IMHO. |
Hey thanks for having this discussion. I have a Trinity, and an ESQ1 as well as the mighty K but have never used the sequencer on any of them nor the one on my Karma! I'm a Cubase fan and have used portastudios from cassette up to my current Tascam 32 track SD. But you have my interest up into trying those hardware seq now. Maybe I've been missing out all these years!😎
_________________
Korg Kronos 61 Korg Karma Korg Trinity+ DSI Rev 2 16 Casio MZ-X500 61-KEY Roland SH201 Roland FA-06 Ensoniq ESQ1 Alesis 7.1 Alesis Ion Alesis S4 and S4+ Emu B3 mod Yamaha MM6 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GregC
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 9451
Location: Discovery Bay (San Francisco Bay Area)
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| drb32856 wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | jeremykeys wrote: | I can only speak for myself here but I really like the Kronos Sequencer. It took a while to figure it all out but after some effort it all came together for me.
I don't use it much anymore though. I have SSD issues. I've had them for quite some time and finally just said "the heck with it!"
Now I use Cubase 7.5.4. I love it. It just works for me. I generally don't use patterns except with the Kronos drum track and when I do, I just have it play into Cubase. I always set my BPM in Cubase to be the same as the drum track in my Kronos.
Sorry but I don't know anything at all about the Trinity sequencer. I have an old Triton Pro X but I never used the sequencer in it.
Good luck in your search though! |
Thanks much for your feedback!
Just to be clear...when I refer to "patterns", I'm not talking about a drum pattern, or repeating loop through a song. In fact, I imagine that you probably (yes, I'm assuming) DO use "patterns" when you compose in Cubase.
By "pattern"...I'm referring to a complete 16 track/channel (with full effects) section of an arrangement. Like a verse using one set of programs and effects, and a chorus using another set of programs and effects...each one is a separate "pattern" which then gets arranged in a "cue list".
On the M3, each "pattern" is called a "song". With the Cue List you can name each "song", for example, "verse 1", "verse 2", "breakdown 1", "chorus".....and then you can arrange the order of them, and how many times they will play. Its sort of like how NI Maschine works, for a modern example. Or like an Ensoniq ESQ-1 works, for a ubiquitous hardware example. You can get really quite creative with these "patterns" in the cue list....as each segment can have its own unique settings, programs, effects, tempo, length, etc. So a "song" on the Kronos is just ONE 16 track/channel linear canvas. On the M3 you could have dozens of the same....and then arrange these any way you want to compose your "song".
Kronos sequencer is great for what it is...but its seriously handicapped, creatively, without any arrangement facilities, IMHO. |
Hey thanks for having this discussion. I have a Trinity, and an ESQ1 as well as the mighty K but have never used the sequencer on any of them nor the one on my Karma! I'm a Cubase fan and have used portastudios from cassette up to my current Tascam 32 track SD. But you have my interest up into trying those hardware seq now. Maybe I've been missing out all these years!😎 |
its ok. I know I am missing out on arrangers 
_________________
Kronos 88. MODX8
Achieve your musical dreams
https://soundcloud.com/user-898236994 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
