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Kronos owners: would you buy a Trinity?
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RonF
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apex wrote:
RonF wrote:
amit wrote:
Sorry don't know about the cue mode, but have you tried modstep for ipad?
it's very powerful pattern based and midi triggerable patterns (like ableton live for midi).

However if you want to program patterns and also arrange them then there is another app called "midi patterns" that has seq mode but not midi triggerable.


I have modstep. I find it good, but not exactly intuitive UI. After years of sequencing on Korg boxes, I like the Korg sequencing workflow. Its just that Oasys/Kronos dropped the all important Cue mode! At least it was important to me and my workflow.


Didn't the cue mode have major timing issues when trying to put cues of songs together?


Not in my experience, and definitely not once you bounced it down to a final mix.
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Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8.


Last edited by RonF on Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RonF
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apex wrote:



And in the cue mode you also had to have the same programs across all the song "sections" didn't you?


That's definitely not true. Each "song" can have its own programs, effects, tempo, settings, etc.
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RonF
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apex wrote:
I think you should read this thread... and give this app a look. I truly think it may have changed my life.

I don't mean that sarcastically either.



http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=105457&sid=45f53c007c17571e510a6eb9dc292ba4

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/modstep/id966990643?mt=8


I'm with you on this one....the desire for "pattern based sequencing for Kronos". Thus far, I've found the UI of Modstep a bit of a mind-melt. Its not intuitive to me. But perhaps I need to spend more time with it. I know a lot of dudes sing its praises. Its certainly not as intuitive, to ME, as the Korg sequencing paradigm.
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apex
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RonF wrote:
apex wrote:
I think you should read this thread... and give this app a look. I truly think it may have changed my life.

I don't mean that sarcastically either.



http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=105457&sid=45f53c007c17571e510a6eb9dc292ba4

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/modstep/id966990643?mt=8


I'm with you on this one....the desire for "pattern based sequencing for Kronos". Thus far, I've found the UI of Modstep a bit of a mind-melt. Its not intuitive to me. But perhaps I need to spend more time with it. I know a lot of dudes sing its praises. Its certainly not as intuitive, to ME, as the Korg sequencing paradigm.


What part of it don't you like?
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RonF
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apex wrote:


What part of it don't you like?


Its just the UI, and the step sequencer is a bit complex to grasp. I haven't spent probably enough time with it...but the times I've explored ModStep, I ended up frustrated. I'm sure its just a matter of educating myself in detail....but that's what i love about the Korg sequencing paradigm....I know it, love it, and its super intuitive. I will give ModStop another look however.
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jeremykeys
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RonF, this whole thread is great! I'm really enjoying it although a lot of the things mentioned; well, I just don't know what they are. No matter though. I'm learning new stuff! Very Happy

I realize that everybody has a different work flow. I tend to write mainly rock music so lately a lot of my songs start off with guitar parts that I play myself. I'll play along to the click in Cubase while recording my ideas. Sometimes I'll change the meter or not. It just depends. Once I've got something that I'm happy with, playing wise and sound wise I'll Do a new version of it while keeping the original on a previous version on the same track. Usually around this time I'm seriously thinking about drum parts. I'll either play the parts form my Korg Nanopad 2 or record some from the Kronos drumtracks if they fit.This is how I'll build my song. Adding electric 5 string bass, keyboards and eventually vocals. I do copy and paste parts into various sections but that's mainly a time thing. If I have time. I'll record a new part (second verse) so that it's not exactly the same. If I don't have much time, I'll copy and paste.

I'm just wondering how your work flow is? I'm trying to figure out why this Cue is so important.

But enough about me! I'd like to hear how other people write and record as well. My songs aren't for playback though. They're complete and I totally understand having backing tracks that you made yourself.
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RonF
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeremykeys wrote:
RonF, this whole thread is great!

I'm just wondering how your work flow is?


I agree, its a fun thread. Thank you!

Let me TRY to describe a workflow that a cue list brings to the table:

For one thing.....I often come up with ideas, hooks, theme's....rather than whole songs, while I'm playing around on the Kronos. It might be a riff, some Karma happy accident, a Combi performance, some combination of programs in the Seq mode....none of which are really more than 8 or 16 bars long. They are cool "motif's" (sorry for the Yamaha reference!), but not a *SONG*. I've got dozens and dozens of them saved on my Kronos.

So ONE thing a cue list allows you to do is audition some of these ideas in an arrangement. You'd be surprised to find how many of those smaller ideas can work together and be assembled into an entire song. In fact, all it takes is to create a "bridge" between these ideas, then perhaps an intro and outro....and suddenly you've got a 4 minute composition! Intro, verse1, bridge, chorus, bridge, verse2, bridge, chorus, outro. Its a classic way of putting your creative efforts that you've built up into more than just "playing around". Once you have the structure of a full song...then you can get very creative in polishing it up and making it dense and original. The hard part, for me, can be getting off the ground and making that fundamental structure of a SONG. This is a great way to do it! Those "motif's" may be VERY different....different programs, effects, tempos, etc. You can find ways to assemble those puzzle pieces together! Its fun...and it works!

ANOTHER way to use this is to realize that a STEP in a cue list (Korg calls that a "song", I call that a "pattern", but its simply a 16 track/channel-with-effects linear sequence) can be any length and any tempo.....that means the extremes as well (short, fast, slow, silence, etc)....so putting these together with some creative thought can open up some great nuanced structures and elements in a composition.

If you've ever used MOTU Performer (???), its very similar to "Chunks" in that program. Yes you can use it for the ease of creating the backing tracks of a verse, and then repeat that verse again and again in a song without having to resort to copy/paste operations. But more-so, its a creative musical tool. Assembling wildly different "chunks", each one its own unique canvas, and building bridges between them.....that's where a lot of magic can happen...and its particularly useful and successful on a hardware sequencer.

This sort of stuff (musical creativity and inspiration) is hard to put into words and fully describe. Its sort of like describing the color yellow. Surprised

So....Here's an example of a song that I assembled using "chunks" in a hardware cue list. Many of the "steps" are only 1 bar long, with the tempo doubled or quadrupled to achieve certain effects. Perhaps it will help explain what I mean.
https://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/ocean-sunset?in=ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
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apex
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just bought Modstep on Tuesday and got a chance to fiddle with it and record some stuff today. I think I have a decent grasp on the part that I'll use the most. (very decent actually).

Recording MIDI into the program using an external midi source. Adding scenes and recording the "sections" of my song. Mapped the apps volume faders to the volume faders on the MIDI controller (in this case a MOTIF XF6)...

Man this app is EXACTLY what you want. I'm telling you, it's a LIFE SAVER/CHANGER for me.

Another dope thing that it allows is the ability to KEEP RECORDING without EVER stopping the sequencer.....

Another DOPE thing that this allows... for me, I use patterns live at church (stems etc). It was just me (on organ or keyboard) and a drummer. The patterns/stems allow a much much fuller sound (like an entire band). The patterns allow me to change to different places within the song (wherever the choir director says to go) at a moments notice. And just imagine... the iPad and a multi timbrel sound module is ALL you need... so I can just pack up my 2 space rack or my BELOVED M3 plug it in and never have to worry about lugging a keyboard around JUST for pattern mode....

this is unbelievable ..... freaking unbelievable.

If pattern based recording is what you are after... THEN YOU MUST TRY THIS PROGRAM..... sheesh. smh.

about time someone helped us in this department. I plan to do a video within the next week or so demonstrating some of its features.
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RonF
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apex wrote:
I just bought Modstep on Tuesday and got a chance to fiddle with it and record some stuff today. I think I have a decent grasp on the part that I'll use the most. (very decent actually).

Recording MIDI into the program using an external midi source. Adding scenes and recording the "sections" of my song. Mapped the apps volume faders to the volume faders on the MIDI controller (in this case a MOTIF XF6)...

Man this app is EXACTLY what you want. I'm telling you, it's a LIFE SAVER/CHANGER for me.
Another dope thing that it allows is the ability to KEEP RECORDING without EVER stopping the sequencer.....

Another DOPE thing that this allows... for me, I use patterns live at church (stems etc). It was just me (on organ or keyboard) and a drummer. The patterns/stems allow a much much fuller sound (like an entire band). The patterns allow me to change to different places within the song (wherever the choir director says to go) at a moments notice. And just imagine... the iPad and a multi timbrel sound module is ALL you need... so I can just pack up my 2 space rack or my BELOVED M3 plug it in and never have to worry about lugging a keyboard around JUST for pattern mode....

this is unbelievable ..... freaking unbelievable.

If pattern based recording is what you are after... THEN YOU MUST TRY THIS PROGRAM..... sheesh. smh.

about time someone helped us in this department. I plan to do a video within the next week or so demonstrating some of its features.


That is GREAT intel @apex! Thank you! Well, I guess I just got lost in the interface without delving into it too deeply. Seemed like a steep learning curve...but it sounds like perhaps its worth it, and as you say, there really isn't anything else like this for the iPad. I can direct connect the iPad to Kronos...so it could be the "missing link" Wink

Gosh I just WISH Korg, who makes GREAT APPs (!!!), would do a midi sequencer app that mirrored M3 or Triton. Gadget could be very cool if they would open it up to work with external hardware.

Anyways....on your enthusiasm, I will take another shot at ModStep. I know theres quite a few YT demos....time to watch.

yes...please post a video!
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http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8.
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apex
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RonF wrote:
apex wrote:
I just bought Modstep on Tuesday and got a chance to fiddle with it and record some stuff today. I think I have a decent grasp on the part that I'll use the most. (very decent actually).

Recording MIDI into the program using an external midi source. Adding scenes and recording the "sections" of my song. Mapped the apps volume faders to the volume faders on the MIDI controller (in this case a MOTIF XF6)...

Man this app is EXACTLY what you want. I'm telling you, it's a LIFE SAVER/CHANGER for me.
Another dope thing that it allows is the ability to KEEP RECORDING without EVER stopping the sequencer.....

Another DOPE thing that this allows... for me, I use patterns live at church (stems etc). It was just me (on organ or keyboard) and a drummer. The patterns/stems allow a much much fuller sound (like an entire band). The patterns allow me to change to different places within the song (wherever the choir director says to go) at a moments notice. And just imagine... the iPad and a multi timbrel sound module is ALL you need... so I can just pack up my 2 space rack or my BELOVED M3 plug it in and never have to worry about lugging a keyboard around JUST for pattern mode....

this is unbelievable ..... freaking unbelievable.

If pattern based recording is what you are after... THEN YOU MUST TRY THIS PROGRAM..... sheesh. smh.

about time someone helped us in this department. I plan to do a video within the next week or so demonstrating some of its features.


That is GREAT intel @apex! Thank you! Well, I guess I just got lost in the interface without delving into it too deeply. Seemed like a steep learning curve...but it sounds like perhaps its worth it, and as you say, there really isn't anything else like this for the iPad. I can direct connect the iPad to Kronos...so it could be the "missing link" Wink

Gosh I just WISH Korg, who makes GREAT APPs (!!!), would do a midi sequencer app that mirrored M3 or Triton. Gadget could be very cool if they would open it up to work with external hardware.

Anyways....on your enthusiasm, I will take another shot at ModStep. I know theres quite a few YT demos....time to watch.

yes...please post a video!


yes there is something else like this. it's called Yamaha Mobile Music Sequencer. It's similar. but that's all. ModStep is WHAT'S UP. wish I'd gotten it before it was $20.... BUT Target had a sale this week where if you buy 3 items (like cleaning or household items) and you get a free $10 gift card. So wifey went and purchased and toilet paper and washing powder and got me the gift card. She got a $25 iTunes card for $15. (oh yeah she had a $5 target gift card that she used too...so really I got it for $10. Then I bought the app... very quick download. The program is super small. AND IT RUNS ON IPAD 1 even. It goes back to iOS 5.1 lol... or something like that.

I'm telling you man. This is only the beginning. iPads are crazy assets. I mean you could do this same thing with Ableton Live... but this app only cost $20.

Enough of my soapbox...

oh yeah, I DON'T WORK FOR THEM. lol
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SanderXpander wrote:

More power to you. Most of those things have never happened to my computer either.
I record a lot of actual audio, vocals, guitar, bass, drums, I have to edit (move, fix, copy/paste) stuff a lot and I have a large collection of VST instruments and FX that I believe sound better and in my work environment are more user friendly than my Kronos..


To be honest, I suspect most of the issues I've had are a combination of poor drivers and bugs in various DAWs. For example, I had an issue where my MOTU MiIDI interface refused to send MIDI - but would receive MIDI just fine - if it was plugged into one particular USB 3.0 port using one particular chipset. How random is that? I've had issues with Cubase locking up when USB MIDI devices are switched off or unplugged whilst the app is running, which has been a long-standing bug on the Windows version and never resolved.

Similarly, pretty much every article on optimising your computer for audio suggests turning off WiFi, as many WiFi drivers can cause Deferred Procedure Calls and cause audio drop outs.

Piracy is also an issue with PC music software that has resulted in many software products being laden with software protections like dongles. Every few months, for no apparent reason, my Korg Legacy collection requires re-authorisation, which takes about 20 minutes. Similarly, I went to use Melodyne recently and, although I've had the same computer for five years, it required re-authorization. Unfortunately I have reached the number of authorisations I'm permitted, and three months later I'm still waiting on a reply from Melodyne support. Ain't nobody got time for that.

I think computers are great when you work predominantly in the box, using VSTs and the inbuilt effects. But acquiring a good PC, a decent audio interface, DAW software and a selection of VSTs can become incredibly expensive. Finding the right selection of gear that all works together well - and continues to work well together when various components are upgraded or replace - is a challenge.

For me, I didn't buy the Kronos for its sequencer, in fact I originally thought it was a gimmick that couldn't possibly compete with using a PC. But over time I found myself using it more and more. This is mostly due to the integration. For example, if I record an audio track into the Kronos, it's really easy to use the high-quality effects in the Kronos on that audio track. If I have recorded the audio on the PC, it's much more difficult to route these tracks into the Kronos as an outboard processor - and you're then limited to two stereo tracks. Yes, I could spend more money buying additional VSTs for the PC, but decent effects aren't cheap.

Even just setting up a PC based DAW to have the correct initial CC values for a track - which is done automatically on the Kronos, is a chore. I spent a good few hours trying to work out how to reliably record adjustments to KARMA parameters into an external sequencer and have them play back correctly. Ain't nobody got time for that.

TL;DR: If i had a Mac, worked predominantly in the box and had hardware that was less complex, I would use a PC-based sequencer.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read about the wifi thing before but I've never needed to do anything with it, regardless of which interface I've used and I can think of at least eight different ones. I've also never had to "randomly" reauthorize stuff, only when I updated to Windows 10 did my Addictive Drums installation complain. Melodyne allows you to deauthorize one of your two computers too if you login to your profile, have you tried that?
Maybe I've been lucky, but while it's true computers require some maintenance occasionally I don't generally have problems while I'm using them.

Again, if it works for you why not. I just couldn't imagine using a hardware sequencer/recorder, especially not one as limited as the Kronos (for that purpose). I still really love the board!
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SeedyLee
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SanderXpander wrote:


Again, if it works for you why not. I just couldn't imagine using a hardware sequencer/recorder, especially not one as limited as the Kronos (for that purpose). I still really love the board!


The Wifi thing depends very much on the particular chipset and drivers. My previous Netgear using an Atheros chipset was appalling, wears my current TP-Link (which I think uses an Atheros as well?) is flawless.

As for software de-authorising, each vendor implements this differently, but in my case it's possibly due to a large number of "virtual" device changes related to running virtual machines and such. The argument is often made that a PC based setup is a cheap way to go, as most people already have a PC - but in my experience, you really need a dedicated machine that doesn't get fiddled with for anything els!

I did pick up a copy of SONAR Artist recently, and have been quite impressed with that. It's much more stable on Windows than Cubase ever has been. I'm finding it not too bad, but the effects are rather ordinary and as a consequence, I find myself running audio through the Kronos anyway - so I might as well just record it there Smile

Don't get me wrong, it's not a case that I think my way is the right way and everyone else is wrong - I think PCs are phenomenally powerful for music creation, and the advent of VSTs made PCs a viable option to replace a studio full of equipment. It's just for me - and the gear I currently own - I love staying in the world of hardware and open standards, rather than having to worry about whether a particular VST 2x plugin is going to be compatible with a new VST 3 host that's 64-bit only and blah blah blah.

With hardware, I can plug a synth made in 1984 into my Kronos made in 2011, and run an audio cable between the two and be done with it.

Out of curiosity, in what way do you find the Kronos' sequencer limited?
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StephenKay
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RonF wrote:
apex wrote:
RonF wrote:
amit wrote:
Sorry don't know about the cue mode, but have you tried modstep for ipad?
it's very powerful pattern based and midi triggerable patterns (like ableton live for midi).

However if you want to program patterns and also arrange them then there is another app called "midi patterns" that has seq mode but not midi triggerable.


I have modstep. I find it good, but not exactly intuitive UI. After years of sequencing on Korg boxes, I like the Korg sequencing workflow. Its just that Oasys/Kronos dropped the all important Cue mode! At least it was important to me and my workflow.


Didn't the cue mode have major timing issues when trying to put cues of songs together?


Not in my experience, and definitely not once you bounced it down to a final mix.

In my experience, I found it unusable. There are definitely timing issues and hiccups when you attempt to link song sections that have different effects. Unless you keep the EXACT same effects, you will get timing glitches.

When I was working on the M3 demo sequence "KARMA-fied!", which is essentially 9 or so completely different songs all linked together with a swoosh noise between each one, I tried to do it with the cue list. Each song had completely different effects. It proved to be unworkable. I documented it and complained to Korg and there were many discussions back and forth, but ultimately, their position was "that's as good as it gets, too much happening when you change a section and all the effects are changing."

So I ended up having to make one long linear song, and change the effects within the song at different times using sysex. What a pain that was! And also, you had to make sure to stagger the effects changes at different times. Trying to do them all at a particular beat in the song would cause the same kind of timing glitches.

The same goes for program changes - if you try to do 16 program changes all on a particular beat on 16 tracks, you'll get a timing hiccup. You have to stagger them.

Actually, even with the linear method, if I recall correctly the whole reason I went with the swoosh noises was to give myself time to change all of the effects and programs without anyone noticing. I was originally going to abruptly switch from one song to the next, but it wasn't possible.

I guess it depends how tolerant you are of little timing inconsistencies. YMMV. Smile
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amit
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ronF, if in your shoes, i'd just get the trinity.
here's why :
1:It's tried and tested and it works for you. (so you don't have to go spending time learning or discovering things that don't do your way.)
2: It's likely gonna be cheaper that many hardware alternative`s.
3: I don't care if its old tech or not, as long as it delivers what is expected off it.

having said that:

I have spent quite a bit on ipad music Apps.
There are some really good ones but none has it all and all have their issues.

Hook (retronyms): The latest I got this, Lets you mix and mash audio loops, downside (no metronome/Click Track while recording input)

Modstep : has had issues being slave to kronos

midiPatterns (is hardcoded for GM/GX and XG only so have to filter out PC messages.

DAWs are Good, but I too tend to stay away if I can, I get too lost into DAW and features to be able to do anything creative.

however, Studio one 3 has exactly the functionality you want arranger tracks : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZALHeAeOjM4

Ableton, I do use at times but it has it's own set of issues and no sysex.
Same with Kronos: you can't edit the sysex in seq midi events.

RPPR is good and creative but there is no Group Mute (exclusive) thing
Found that RPPR with pads is the best multi track trick.
Would have loved to assign sysex to RPPR, but It lacks that so have to do that externally.

All I am trying to say here is that eveything has had it's set of issues, but they all work great for different people and their needs.
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