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runningman67
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 1663
Location: Manchester UK
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 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I've had the T3, O1, Trinity, Triton Studio and now the Kronos.
The sequencer has evolved over the years and for me the Kronos speaks the same language as the others but more clearly.
I see the Kronos Sequencer as a blank canvas and I create everything as I go along, so it suits me.
I don't think you will find the sequencer type you are looking for in a Korg Workstation.
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pete.m
Senior Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 484
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| As SanderXpander said elsewhere in this thread, the Kronos sequencer is directly descended from the Trinity and - having gone from Trinity to Triton Extreme to Kronos for all my music over the last 12 years or so - I can safely say that the Kronos is a distinct improvement. Is it really worth adding more clutter and more cabling to your studio, for the sake of one sequencer function? Fine if you're an incurable gearhead, but it seems rather unnecessary to me. |
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SeedyLee
Platinum Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Perth, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | | If you really must have a hardware based sequencer (which for me personally is almost incomprehensible) |
Why?
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has skipped due to bad WiFi drivers: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has required reauthorisation due to some arbitrary change in hardware configuration: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has told me I've reached the maximum number of authorisations and to contact Customer Service: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has refused to transmit MIDI because of an upgraded USB driver: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has required an update because I've upgraded the OS: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has needed a virus scan: 0
I know my way around a computer pretty well, yet I consistently find myself being more productive with the Kronos sequencer. Some things you just can't quantify.
_________________
Current Equipment:
Korg Kronos 2 88, Reface CS, Roland JV-1080, TE OP1, Moog Subsequent 37, Korg ARP Odyssey, Allen & Heath Zed 18, Adam F5, MOTU MIDI Express XT, Lexicon MX200 & MPX1, Yamaha QY700, Yamaha AW16G, Tascam DP008ex, Zoom H6, Organelle, Roland J6 & JU06A
Previous: Triton LE 61/Sampling/64MB/4GB SCSI, MS2000BR, Kronos 1 61, Monotribe, NanoKontrol, NanoKeys, Kaossilator II, Casio HT3000, Roland VP-03, Reface DX, Novation Mininova, MPC One |
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runningman67
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 1663
Location: Manchester UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| SeedyLee wrote: |
I know my way around a computer pretty well, yet I consistently find myself being more productive with the Kronos sequencer. Some things you just can't quantify. |
My feelings exactly.
I'm only pleased that Manufacturers like Korg still produce Hardware devices when so much software stuff is creeping in.
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | I think you have to put the praise of the Trinity sequencer into context. It was really good compared to what was out there at the time. The Kronos sequencer is directly descended from it and upgraded in many aspects, with the exception of the cue list thing, which I can imagine is important to you. By the way sorry for not saying so directly but I haven't personally used the Trinity sequencer though I used the Triton series sequencer a lot at one time. I just find the basic workflow between Triton and Kronos to be nearly identical so I'm not sure what magic you're looking for other than a cue list.
If you can do without audio recording (or use in-track sampling), the M3 adds a piano roll, chord pads and a kaoss pad to the mix. That I would call an upgrade. |
Thanks a lot for this! Yes, what makes the Trinity "special" in comparison to the Kronos is its HDR option....4 audio tracks direct to disc recording. This, and of course the "cue list". And I believe the synthesis engine is very different, lending a different flavor to the Kronos. While the M3 has in track sampling, that's quite a bit different than HDR. And its sound engine is very similar, albeit lower fidelity, than Kronos.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| SeedyLee wrote: | | RonF wrote: |
The way you describe (and I do this too!), you're really capped to 16 midi programs and the effects allocation of the Kronos "as is" for your full arrangement....unless you're going to resort to bouncing to audio tracks, or using program change messages. With a "song mode" you could use potentially dozens and dozens of midi programs and effects throughout one arrangement. |
I don't know if this helps, but you certainly can change programs mid-track, as well as effects allocations mid-song too. Pretty much any parameter you can change on the Kronos whilst you're recording can be recorded into the sequencer. |
Yes, of course. But program change messages and sys ex dumps (put effects to track) is finicky at best. In particular the effects...which take time to change and often lead to sonic artifacts. Its workable...but its seriously laborious compared to a simple cue list. I usually end up just bouncing to audio tracks to avoid those artifacts....its all just extra steps, not easily re-editable (without stepping back to an archive of PCG's that you've saved), and not nearly as creative or friendly as a true arrangement mode. There are some great MUSICAL tricks that can also be employed when using a cue list type of arrangement. Those are sadly not present on Kronos.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| runningman67 wrote: |
I don't think you will find the sequencer type you are looking for in a Korg Workstation. |
Well, Trinity seems it might be it....HDR, Cue List, TouchView, extensive Effects routing, and the Korg Sequencer "language" as you pointed out.
But of course....there are always compromises. I'm in no way suggesting giving up my Kronos for a Trinity. I'm wondering about adding a Trinity to a Kronos set-up.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Kronos has 16 track HDR so that's actually quite a lot better than the Trinity 4 track. I believe you will find many, many of the same samples and sound engine features on the Trinity that you know from Kronos, mostly with fewer options and samples. Of course it will sound slightly different, and you could get the Trinity MOSS board which has its own charm.
Depending on your purposes, in-track sampling might be just as useful as HDR. Don't forget you can only have four tracks of audio on the Trinity, HDR or not. A five minute track of mono audio is only about 27MB at 16bit 48KHz so with the M3s 256MB of RAM you could easily have four "tracks" of audio or more.
I don't know, it seems like your mind is made up but I honestly think the ONLY thing the Trinity has over the K is the Cue List function. You just have to decide if that's worth the money and space for you I guess. |
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apex
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 2340
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apex
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 2340
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| RonF wrote: | | amit wrote: | Sorry don't know about the cue mode, but have you tried modstep for ipad?
it's very powerful pattern based and midi triggerable patterns (like ableton live for midi).
However if you want to program patterns and also arrange them then there is another app called "midi patterns" that has seq mode but not midi triggerable. |
I have modstep. I find it good, but not exactly intuitive UI. After years of sequencing on Korg boxes, I like the Korg sequencing workflow. Its just that Oasys/Kronos dropped the all important Cue mode! At least it was important to me and my workflow. |
Didn't the cue mode have major timing issues when trying to put cues of songs together?
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SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| SeedyLee wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | | If you really must have a hardware based sequencer (which for me personally is almost incomprehensible) |
Why?
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has skipped due to bad WiFi drivers: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has required reauthorisation due to some arbitrary change in hardware configuration: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has told me I've reached the maximum number of authorisations and to contact Customer Service: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has refused to transmit MIDI because of an upgraded USB driver: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has required an update because I've upgraded the OS: 0
Number of times my Kronos Sequencer has needed a virus scan: 0
I know my way around a computer pretty well, yet I consistently find myself being more productive with the Kronos sequencer. Some things you just can't quantify. |
More power to you. Most of those things have never happened to my computer either.
I record a lot of actual audio, vocals, guitar, bass, drums, I have to edit (move, fix, copy/paste) stuff a lot and I have a large collection of VST instruments and FX that I believe sound better and in my work environment are more user friendly than my Kronos. Half the stuff I need to do on a daily basis I couldn't even do on a Kronos at all, and most of the rest is a lot faster on the computer.
I suppose if most of what you do is midi based and you don't have to do too much editing, a Kronos is a nice all in one solution. Obviously there's a pleasant immediacy to it. |
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apex
Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 2340
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| RonF wrote: | | GregC wrote: | | RonF wrote: | | GregC wrote: | you have a lot of gear.
I am a minimalist, like a simple approach. Thus, no, I have no interest in an old piece of gear like that
I have owned the TR-Rack, Triton and Extreme inn the past.
The SEQ in the Kronos rocks. I love it |
True. I do gear!
How do you get around the lack of patterns in composition in Kronos SEQ? I find it cumbersome. Yes, its a good sequencer, but it lacks that ability to compose motif's, and assemble them into song, all on board one machine. |
lack of patterns ?
I roll my own parts
for example I use 16 midi programs on Signed Sealed Delivered. I take the time to learn/record each part |
Think you're missing my point. Yes, of course I do the same as you suggest.
On the M3, for example, you can have 16 midi programs and learn/record each part of "a section" of a song. Then do that again in another section of a song, using DIFFERENT programs/effects. And then assemble those sections (arrange patterns) into a full composition. This way, you're getting to use different programs and effects, very easily, through the arrangement of your song. In Kronos, you have nothing but a 16 track linear midi sequencer. To achieve the same level of arrangement requires program change messages, bouncing to audio tracks, and your effects allocation is clearly more limited over the length of the song. Does that make more sense? It can all be done on the Kronos. But the workflow is just more laborious. |
And in the cue mode you also had to have the same programs across all the song "sections" didn't you?
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runningman67
Platinum Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 1663
Location: Manchester UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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You have the space and the funds, what is there to lose. It's a great synth. Hope you find what you are looking for.
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| pete.m wrote: | | As SanderXpander said elsewhere in this thread, the Kronos sequencer is directly descended from the Trinity and - having gone from Trinity to Triton Extreme to Kronos for all my music over the last 12 years or so - I can safely say that the Kronos is a distinct improvement. Is it really worth adding more clutter and more cabling to your studio, for the sake of one sequencer function? Fine if you're an incurable gearhead, but it seems rather unnecessary to me. |
Well, I wouldn't call myself an incurable gear-head....I'm more strategic than that about my gear acquisitions. But....a good workflow, especially sequencer, can be a core item in one's creativity and output. That's why I'm inquiring. Its not a frivolous pursuit. I've worked with the Kronos for 5 years. I'm just frustrated that I'm hitting a wall on certain things, and pondering how I might improve it.
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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RonF
Platinum Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1179
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| SanderXpander wrote: | The Kronos has 16 track HDR so that's actually quite a lot better than the Trinity 4 track. I believe you will find many, many of the same samples and sound engine features on the Trinity that you know from Kronos, mostly with fewer options and samples. Of course it will sound slightly different, and you could get the Trinity MOSS board which has its own charm.
Depending on your purposes, in-track sampling might be just as useful as HDR. Don't forget you can only have four tracks of audio on the Trinity, HDR or not. A five minute track of mono audio is only about 27MB at 16bit 48KHz so with the M3s 256MB of RAM you could easily have four "tracks" of audio or more.
I don't know, it seems like your mind is made up but I honestly think the ONLY thing the Trinity has over the K is the Cue List function. You just have to decide if that's worth the money and space for you I guess. |
No my mind is definitely not "made up". I really appreciate the dialog in this thread with you guys. Maybe I should focus on the M3 more (I already own it)....as I said in the OP, I never had the privilege to own a Trinity, and I hear good things about it (and I'm told it adds a new sonic flavor than the Kronos, and its also pretty cheap on eBay). So, I figured I'd see what kind of appeal the Trinity has here. That's all.
Your points about M3 RAM is understood! Thank you!
_________________
http://soundcloud.com/ronf-3/sets/ronf-music
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1zAKpV_F226LQZrUYGPQA
Favorite Gear: Kronos 61, M3, Z1, Radias, KPro, KP3, Moog Voyager, Foogers, Virus TI, Jupiter 80, Integra7, GAIA, SPD-30, Kiwi 106, RE-201, MC808, RC505, MV8800, DSI P6 and OB6 and P12, Ensoniq SQ80, EMU MP-7, Eventide H7600, Eclipse, SPACE, Pitchfactor, Timefactor, Looperlative LP-1, Axe FX Ultra, Nord Modular, DSI Tetra, Tempest, PEK, JDXA, Eurorack Modular, Octatrack, MDUW, Monomachine, A4, RYTM, Waldorf Q Phoenix, MWXTk, Blofeld, TR8. |
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