 |
Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
BSV73
Junior Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 59
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:58 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| danatkorg wrote: | | BSV73 wrote: | Dan/ Pedro and anyone else interested, Here is the set-up I'm talking about:
Set-up 1. Kronos -> L mono 1/4 inch cable direct into Qsc K8
vs
Set-up 2. Kronos -> usb into macbook pro -> audio into logic pro x with no effects on either (I've also tested this with ableton live with the same result) -> NI audio kontrol 1 -> mono 1/4 cable into Qsc K8
To my ears set up 2 has a noticeably more detailed sound. |
Just to confirm: in Setup 1, you're using a single 1/4" cable from the L/Mono output to your QSC powered speaker, with nothing connected to the R output. Yes? |
Hey Dan, yes that is correct.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BSV73 wrote: | | danatkorg wrote: | | BSV73 wrote: | Dan/ Pedro and anyone else interested, Here is the set-up I'm talking about:
Set-up 1. Kronos -> L mono 1/4 inch cable direct into Qsc K8
vs
Set-up 2. Kronos -> usb into macbook pro -> audio into logic pro x with no effects on either (I've also tested this with ableton live with the same result) -> NI audio kontrol 1 -> mono 1/4 cable into Qsc K8
To my ears set up 2 has a noticeably more detailed sound. |
Just to confirm: in Setup 1, you're using a single 1/4" cable from the L/Mono output to your QSC powered speaker, with nothing connected to the R output. Yes? |
Hey Dan, yes that is correct.. |
OK - that explains it.
In Setup 1, since there is no cable plugged into the R output, the L/MONO output is carrying an analog summation of the left and right signals.
In Setup 2, there is no summation. The cable from the NI interface will carry only the left or right signal, depending on which you've connected.
So, the two will sound very different indeed.
In general, I'd suggest monitoring in stereo, which should sound much better than either!
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BSV73
Junior Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 59
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Dan - I'm still not convinced and I know that no one here will believe me.
I've done a lot of a/b testing with L/R out / R only out / L only out into a single Qsc and also tested with 2 x qsc's in stereo. And that is not the difference in audio that I can hear.
What I'm talking about is a difference in mono audio quality with the DAW/Usb interface between the kronos and speaker.
It isn't an issue of summing a stereo signal or not. It is the richness and detail of the signal.
I'd be very interested to hear more detail on what the OP's engineers Setup and thoughts were.
Is there anyone else that can perform some similar tests with an audio interface and report back? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
I indeed don't believe you because the loss of richness and detail is exactly what happens when summing to mono. This is definitely causing your issue.
EDIT:
sorry let me phrase that differently. I have no doubt that you're hearing some difference. I just still think the stereo/mono issue is causing it and if not, it's still really unlikely it's the DAC. You could try this experiment:
Load a midi piano track in the Kronos. Record this to a stereo track in your DAW over USB. Hook up your DAW to a mixer, preferably one with mute buttons. Hook up the Kronos too, in stereo. Hook up the mixer to your monitoring of choice, also in stereo. For detailed listening, I wouldn't recommend PA speakers like the K8 but I don't know what else you have available. Playing the track in your DAW and on the Kronos will now yield the same result from either source. Ideally, you'd sync them too but that's a few too many steps to get into now. Try to volume match the sources as much as possible. Also make sure you use the same connections on both (balanced, if possible). Now you can switch sources. Have someone come in to switch sources for you while you have your back turned and make notes. It won't prove the Kronos DACs suck, but if you can tell the difference between the two reliably, at least you can hear what the DAC is actually doing.
Out of curiosity, what interface do you have? E.g. some Focusrites are notoriously lacking in the midrange, which could translate to a sound with more highs and lows, i.e. more "richness and detail".
Last edited by SanderXpander on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
80salife
Senior Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 347
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Mono could never approach the sound of stereo, thats illogical...
But two ears two hearings, There's no accounting for taste.
I think, that someone could love an old sound and habituate to that sound und nothing could reach this sound anymore...
For me in the first weeks with KRONOS, it was difficult also, often think that is a touch too much  No only my equipment is a touch too less
_________________
Love and peace to everyone 
Live:
Korg KRONOS, Triton Extreme 88, Korg Trinity V3, Roland Integra, Yamaha TG 500, Korg DS-8, CME UF 88, MOTU Timepiece II,
Studio:
Samson Resolve, Rhode NT1, Ultimate Stands, Korg Legacy Collection,KARMA KRONOS, Extreme Sample Converter, Native Kontakt Piano Collection, OPX Pro II,Native Instruments GuitarPlugs, Wave Gold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rosen Sound
Approved Merchant
Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 1056
Location: Los Angeles, California
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
On a daily basis, I am spoiled by the most revered synthesizers money could have got you throughout history. Luckily (and unluckily) my studio team.... just... love... A/B'ing everything.
On paper, as in looking at analyzers and the like, the Kronos is second to none. Especially when pumping the same samples through other keyboards on the same "tier" (though thats a loose argument considering how poorly other manufacturers are doing at competing with the kronos).
If only it could be clocked past 48 though.... if only for workflow reasons...
You really can't even compare a Kronos to any red machine. I still just don't get the hype on those. They honestly sound awful
_________________
Current gear: Korg Kronos 61, Oberheim OB-8, Alesis Vortex
Past Gear: Triton Extreme w/moss & ram, Korg Radias, Kurzweil Micropiano, Triton classic, & Karma
Come visit my Burbank California repair shop/recording studio! Rosensound.com
And my band: Sirion.us.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
QuiRobinez
Approved Merchant
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 2533
Location: Netherlands
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rosen Sound wrote: | | You really can't even compare a Kronos to any red machine. I still just don't get the hype on those. They honestly sound awful |
that was also my opinion, but with one exception, the NL4 sounds fantastic, in my opinion it has a totally different sound character then the other red versions. Still i think that the Kronos sounds way better especially in the high registers then the NL4. But i love to use them together in my productions.
One of the main problems i hear on a lot of sound demos from others is that the recordings sounds flat and sometimes even have a mono behavior. I think this has a lot to do with the setup you are recording it with (the audio interface, the method of connecting your cables, the choice of the cables, etc.). All my demos are recorded directly out of the kronos, although the YouTube compression kicks in it still sounds very detailed, without any post-processing on the sound. I have lots of other synths where that isn't possible and i need to post process those sounds before uploading a demo. This is where the kronos makes a difference, it isn't needed if you pay a little attention to the stereo image and phasing problems you can get when creating combis. Also some standard EQ knowledge with cutting area's to make room for each sound definitely help with the end result.
Also keep in mind that if you are using mono sounds in a mono setup that through phasing problems sounds can sound differently, you can test this really simple by combining a long kick with lots of low ends and a bass line through the kick. You will notice that the bass will loose pressence in the EQ area's that are overlapping with the kick. Completely normal behavior which you are normally going to solve with a small cut in the kick or with sidechain compression. Now there are hundreds of these kind of things that can influence the sound. So A-B comparisons between sounds is most of the time a useless comparison unless you setup all parameters exactly the same and also use exactly the same hardware connection setup.
Now based on some of the remarks here that the kronos does sound better through a DAW setup, this is quite subjective, it's a fact that a sound card interface can change the sound. The converters used in a soundcard determine what happens with the signal. It's possible that you are so used to that sound modification that you will like it better then a signal directly to a monitor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BSV73
Junior Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 59
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SanderXpander wrote: | I indeed don't believe you because the loss of richness and detail is exactly what happens when summing to mono. This is definitely causing your issue.
EDIT:
sorry let me phrase that differently. I have no doubt that you're hearing some difference. I just still think the stereo/mono issue is causing it and if not, it's still really unlikely it's the DAC. You could try this experiment:
Load a midi piano track in the Kronos. Record this to a stereo track in your DAW over USB. Hook up your DAW to a mixer, preferably one with mute buttons. Hook up the Kronos too, in stereo. Hook up the mixer to your monitoring of choice, also in stereo. For detailed listening, I wouldn't recommend PA speakers like the K8 but I don't know what else you have available. Playing the track in your DAW and on the Kronos will now yield the same result from either source. Ideally, you'd sync them too but that's a few too many steps to get into now. Try to volume match the sources as much as possible. Also make sure you use the same connections on both (balanced, if possible). Now you can switch sources. Have someone come in to switch sources for you while you have your back turned and make notes. It won't prove the Kronos DACs suck, but if you can tell the difference between the two reliably, at least you can hear what the DAC is actually doing.
Out of curiosity, what interface do you have? E.g. some Focusrites are notoriously lacking in the midrange, which could translate to a sound with more highs and lows, i.e. more "richness and detail". |
Sander, I get what you mean about mono vs stereo and that experiment with the midi file is actually a pretty good idea, when I get some time I'll give it a shot. However you don't quite get it, I'm not talking about a mono vs stereo comparison. Both set-ups I've explained are in MONO. I'm talking about the quality difference in both mono set-ups. And it isn't a summing issue, as through my tests I'm familiar with what the effect of summing has on the signal.
Also I couldn't care less if it is the DAC in the kronos that is the issue or not, in my opinion there is something there, what ever it is I just want to figure it out so that I can push the performance of the kronos even further. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanderXpander
Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 7860
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Since it's not really possible to record a summed mono signal over USB, are you saying that you summed a stereo USB recording to mono, played it back over your K8, and found the sound better than straight from the Kronos from L/Mono to K8? Using the same cables?
Even then that would mostly say something about the coloration from your interface vs your Kronos.
What interface are you using? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daniel Kinnaird
Joined: 21 May 2013
Posts: 32
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm sure it has something to do with the quality of the speakers I'm using but...
I find the 'headphone out' audio of my Kronos-X61 to sound absolutely glorious through a pair of Beyerdynamic DT770's but the 'main output' audio to sound not so glorious through my Apogee Duet > Yamaha HS5's. I've tried the main outputs through a few other mono and stereo monitor setups with similar 'not so glorious' results...
Still, I LOVE my Kronos X! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
geoelectro
Platinum Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Posts: 1038
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The audio that goes to the HP and L/R outs are from the same DAC. There is some difference in the analog circuits as the HP out needs more current.
In my service business I find a number of keyboards in my shop with output damage from Phantom Power. A good test for that would be to compare the L/R outputs with say the 1&2 or 3&4 outputs since those aren't typically run to a house board with Phantom Power. In the Kronos, all those outputs have identical analog circuits.
Geo
_________________
Kronos 61 : 3GB RAM 120GB 2nd Drv.
Kronos 2 61
Synthesizers.com Custom Modular
N.I. Komplete 11, Omnisphere 2, VB-3.
HP i7 8GB Win 10
Yamaha P-80 Weighted Keyboard. NanoPad2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BSV73
Junior Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 59
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SanderXpander wrote: | Since it's not really possible to record a summed mono signal over USB, are you saying that you summed a stereo USB recording to mono, played it back over your K8, and found the sound better than straight from the Kronos from L/Mono to K8? Using the same cables?
Even then that would mostly say something about the coloration from your interface vs your Kronos.
What interface are you using? |
Sander, i'm not recording at all, i'm playing the keyboard 'live' - just in my studio with these setups.
Like I said:
Set-up 1: straight from the L/mono to the K8
Set-up2: stereo USB to Logic, then the same 1 cable out of the Native Instruments Audio Kontrol 1 straight to the K8
So yes that is what i'm saying: the Audio Kontrol sounds better that the Kronos outs (if that is DAC or not I don't know)
The other point is that if I A/B the Audio Kontrol vs the Kronos for VST playback (Scarbee Rhodes, Purgatory Creek MKV, Galaxy Vintage D), it is the same, the Audio Kontrol sounds better and the Kronos loses something.
(perhaps I need to try Kronos L/R vs the Audio Kontrol 1/2 straight to the K8 to be 100% sure, but i'm 99% positive that this isn't going to add the difference back that is missing from the kronos audio)
Trust me, It is not a summing issue. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BSV73
Junior Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 59
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| geoelectro wrote: | The audio that goes to the HP and L/R outs are from the same DAC. There is some difference in the analog circuits as the HP out needs more current.
In my service business I find a number of keyboards in my shop with output damage from Phantom Power. A good test for that would be to compare the L/R outputs with say the 1&2 or 3&4 outputs since those aren't typically run to a house board with Phantom Power. In the Kronos, all those outputs have identical analog circuits.
Geo |
Geo,
isn't the DAC for the L/R and your HP (i'm guessing you are talking about a hp brand computer here?) be different? Because the audio is digital via USB to the hp, then whatever audio interface is the DAC in that case??? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BSV73 wrote: | | SanderXpander wrote: | Since it's not really possible to record a summed mono signal over USB, are you saying that you summed a stereo USB recording to mono, played it back over your K8, and found the sound better than straight from the Kronos from L/Mono to K8? Using the same cables?
Even then that would mostly say something about the coloration from your interface vs your Kronos.
What interface are you using? |
Sander, i'm not recording at all, i'm playing the keyboard 'live' - just in my studio with these setups.
Like I said:
Set-up 1: straight from the L/mono to the K8
Set-up2: stereo USB to Logic, then the same 1 cable out of the Native Instruments Audio Kontrol 1 straight to the K8
So yes that is what i'm saying: the Audio Kontrol sounds better that the Kronos outs (if that is DAC or not I don't know)
The other point is that if I A/B the Audio Kontrol vs the Kronos for VST playback (Scarbee Rhodes, Purgatory Creek MKV, Galaxy Vintage D), it is the same, the Audio Kontrol sounds better and the Kronos loses something.
(perhaps I need to try Kronos L/R vs the Audio Kontrol 1/2 straight to the K8 to be 100% sure, but i'm 99% positive that this isn't going to add the difference back that is missing from the kronos audio)
Trust me, It is not a summing issue. |
Actually, as I noted previously, the signal is not remotely the same between your setups 1 and 2 - and the summing in Setup 1 is exactly the issue.
Setup 1: L + R summed to mono
Setup 2: L only
Setup 1 will have the signal from the R channel, so in some senses it's more complete, but depending on other factors may have significant phasing.
Setup 2 will be missing everything from the R channel, but will not have problems with phasing.
These are *massive* differences between the two signals, which will completely dwarf any other differences.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danatkorg
Product Manager, Korg R&D
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 4204
Location: California, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The same thing, btw, will happen with these setups when routing your DAW/VSTi outputs through the KRONOS. The L+R summation at the KRONOS L/MONO output is strictly in the analog domain; it doesn't matter whether the sound originated in the KRONOS, or is coming in through the KRONOS USB port. So, that's why you hear the same difference with VSTi.
For a more direct comparison, plug into the *right* outputs of both devices, instead of the left. You'd still have to adjust gain to match, of course.
_________________
Dan Phillips
Manager of Product Development, Korg R&D
Personal website: www.danphillips.com
For technical support, please contact your Korg Distributor: http://www.korg.co.jp/English/Distributors/
Regretfully, I cannot offer technical support directly.
If you need to contact me for purposes other than technical support, please do not send PMs; instead, send email to dan@korgrd.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
