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rob_tky Full Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 134
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:17 am Post subject: Learning resources |
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Hi All,
Being that music is my hobby only, and I do not have any musicians (at least keyboard players) around me, I learn the insides of Kronos on my own. I am yet to find a learning buddy/group - I believe that would speed it up.
Anyway, regarding learning, I am curious what your learning exprience was. Whether you are professional, or hobbiest, how did you get to the level where you are at now? Was the main aspect of your learning based on hundeds of hours of exprimenting? Or was there any structure to your learning?
Also, if there was any resource (book, dvd, website, ...) that you found very useful and would like to share it here that would be appreciated.
I mean any aspect of digital sound, specific to Korg/Kronos or not necessarily. _________________ Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73 |
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jeremykeys Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2011 Posts: 3092 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I started taking piano lessons in 1962 and just basically learned synthesis by trial and error. I know this is no help to you though. Have you thought about asking at the store where you bought your Kronos if there are any other keyboard players near to where you live? _________________ If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats! |
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genehart Full Member
Joined: 30 Dec 2012 Posts: 208
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Homespun videos are great for learning piano .
also there is a Sudosonic videos about Kronos
And of course listen as much as possible . _________________ KronosX 88, RME HDSP 9652, Sennheiser HD600, Cubase AI6 |
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SanderXpander Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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There are some great tutorials by Qui Robinez and a few others about specific Kronos use cases. The operation guide, while thick, is actually also very good if taken in doses.
There is also the help button on the Kronos itself that displays info relevant to the page you are working on.
For non-Kronos specific guidance on synths and sound design, I heartily recommend the Sound on Sound article series "synth secrets". Google it, it's a really good and comprehensive introduction to synthesis of the most common types. Most of it is applicable to the subtractive engines in the Kronos (AL1, MS20, Polysix, and in a sense HD1) and the part about FM applies to MOD7. |
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QuiRobinez Approved Merchant
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Being that music is my hobby only, and I do not have any musicians (at least keyboard players) around me, I learn the insides of Kronos on my own. I am yet to find a learning buddy/group - I believe that would speed it up.
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There is absolutely no need to feel alone in these ages. With the helpful communities and huge amount of tutorials on the internet there is almost for every musical question a solution within a reasonable timeframe.
I have no idea of your current level, but if you want some structure i would suggest to use the following approach:
Playing techniques (through internet tutorials like on youtube or internet pages, or through apps on the ipad):
- learn how to play the standard Scales
- learn how to play the standard Chords
- Study basic musical theory
Synth programming
- Start with Substractive synthesis (in the Kronos it's the easiest to start with the polysix engine, then the HD-1, then the AL-1 and then the MS-20).
- Do not study FM synthesis in the beginning, this is way too difficult. FM (and Additative and granular) Synthesis are the hardest to understand. So stick to the Substractive synthesis to get familiar with synth programming before you go to other synthesis techniques.
Kronos Operation
- First start by reading parts of the operation manual. This is an excellent document that shows the most important parts of the kronos.
- Then watch some kronos tutorials or presentations on youtube to see how others are using the kronos for their music to get an idea what's possible
The most important rule to learn is: Experiment a lot and don't be afraid to do things wrong! |
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LexCan
Joined: 27 Sep 2012 Posts: 16
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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And remember - no matter what you learn as being "correct" and "proper" (technique, chord proressions, harmonies, etc) - if something sounds and feels good to YOU.....it's right.
I studied classical piano formally, messed around with analog synths in the '70's (Korg 770 was my first!), played in various styles of bands throughout the '80's. Lots of listening, imitating, exploring, creating, learning "rules", breaking them as required. Lots of questions to other musicians, listening to and playing ots of different styles.
The learning never ends - thankfully! |
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jeremykeys Platinum Member
Joined: 19 Jun 2011 Posts: 3092 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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The most important things to remember is that it is called "playing music" for a reason. To have fun!
The Kronos for many is a very daunting keyboard, but we also have quite a few "first time" synth players here and I'm sure most of them will agree that once you start fooling around with it, you are very soon making music! _________________ If music is the food of love, play on and play loud!
Gear: Kronos 73, Triton Pro-X, Wavestation EX, Polysix, King Korg, Monotron and Monotron Duo, Minikorg, Moog Grandmother, 1 Roland U-20, Hammond M3, 4 acoustic and 6 electric guitars, 1 Ibanez 5 string bass, a bunch of microphones and other very cool toys, 1 wife and 3 cats! |
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rob_tky Full Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 134
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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SanderXpander wrote: | For non-Kronos specific guidance on synths and sound design, I heartily recommend the Sound on Sound article series "synth secrets". Google it, it's a really good and comprehensive introduction to synthesis of the most common types. Most of it is applicable to the subtractive engines in the Kronos (AL1, MS20, Polysix, and in a sense HD1) and the part about FM applies to MOD7. |
Thank you. I did not come across SoundonSound before. Added to my reading list. In the area of audio mixing/recording, I found this blog/website recently. I thought there is a lot of free pro advices for beginners (and maybe not only) there.
http://therecordingrevolution.com/ _________________ Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73 |
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rob_tky Full Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 134
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:30 am Post subject: |
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QuiRobinez wrote: | There is absolutely no need to feel alone in these ages. With the helpful communities and huge amount of tutorials on the internet there is almost for every musical question a solution within a reasonable timeframe.
I have no idea of your current level, but if you want some structure i would suggest to use the following approach:
Playing techniques [...]
Synth programming [...]
Kronos Operation [...]
The most important rule to learn is: Experiment a lot and don't be afraid to do things wrong! |
Thank you Qui for sharing. And I am well aware of your tutorials - thank you for them.
Can I have a New Year wish here ?
I think there is a space for Korg to participate in education in sound design area, and I wish Korg chooses to explore this as marketing opportunity.
Now that this great technology is affortable not only to professionals but also hobbiest and enthusiasts, making this complex technolgy easier to understand for home user could spark more interest in products.
Parameter and Op guides and short intro videos and definitely core, but they are rather raw in my oppinion. They generally well explain individual area, each parameter.
What could be added is something that brings it all together, shows more practical aspects of usage, gives more of a "feel", rather than technical explanation.
This is a bit of a stretched parallel, but Apple brought complex IT technology to masses, by making it simple and understandable for average user, and it worked well for them. Maybe Korg can look in a similar way at complex areas of sound design/synthesis/program/combi design/sampling/recording etc...
As I said, it's a bit streched, but I think you know what i mean.
Just a thought _________________ Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73 |
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rob_tky Full Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 134
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:58 am Post subject: |
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jeremykeys wrote: | The most important things to remember is that it is called "playing music" for a reason. To have fun!
The Kronos for many is a very daunting keyboard, but we also have quite a few "first time" synth players here and I'm sure most of them will agree that once you start fooling around with it, you are very soon making music! |
Daunting keyboard, tell me about it . Well, it is a fascinating tool!
Thank you all for replies. They got me thinking about what are the things that I feel I need to develop.
I am personally ok with musical side, had some education before. Not pro now and lots to learn, but at last I know what I need to learn and how to do it (mostly).
My post was referring to sound design/synthesis/sonic side of things.
I have also background in electronics, so I understand basic general ideas (lfo, filters, envelopes, ...), still lots of new concepts to learn.
But having some background in both music and and electronics, does not necessarily make me e.g. sound designer.
So some of the questions I have in my mind were:
- how to develop a "sonic" ear. To know which parameter, or rather which area of parameters to look at, to achieve certain sonic effect, modify the sound to what you imagine in your head..
- or maybe the sound design process is not that structured at all, and it's mostly based on trying things, sometimes even without knowing what they are..
I guess it is a combination of both, knowledge and ... spontanious creativity. It depends on individual too.
I know that my question is in a way like asking Picasso to teach me the way to paint genius pictures . Well, yes and no. I am interested in what's behind the process of creation, but I also realize everyone brings to that process a bit of unique ourselves.
Not so long ago I at looked taking my music skills to the next level, and be more comformtable playing jazz (that was a new area for me). What surprised me was that the first book I bought said at the very beginning that "jazz is 1% of magic and 99% of something that can be analysed, understood, structured".
So, can the same be said about the sound design creative process? _________________ Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73
Last edited by rob_tky on Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BobTheDog Platinum Member
Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 1535
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:07 am Post subject: |
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rob_tky wrote: |
- how to develop a "sonic" ear. To know which parameter, or rather which area of parameters to look at, to achieve certain sonic effect, modify the sound to what you imagine in your head..
- or maybe the sound design process is not that structured at all, and it's mostly based on trying things, sometimes even without knowing what they are..
I guess it is a combination of both, knowledge and ... spontanious creativity. It depends on individual too.
I know that my question is in a way like asking Picasso to teach me the way to paint genius pictures . Well, yes and no. I am interesting in what's behind of the process of creation, and also realize everyone brings to that process a bit of unique ourselves.
Not so long ago I at looked taking my music skills to the next level, and be more comformtable playing jazz (that was a new area for me). What surprised me was that the first book I bought said at the very beginning that "jazz is 1% of magic and 99% of something that can be analysed, understood, structured".
So, can the same be said about the sound design creative process? |
At certain levels Sound synthesis has to be understood and analysed and at other levels you can get about by training your brain to understand what is going on.
A training by ear tool for subtractive synthesis that people seem to rave about is this: http://www.syntorial.com there is a demo version that you may want to download to give it a go.
If you want to delve deeper you could start reading some books, a classic starter book would be "the computer music tutorial" by Curtis Roads. This would give you a basic understanding of lots of the concepts involved but does not explain how to program synths.
A good site to look at is http://rhordijk.home.xs4all.nl/G2Pages/ this site uses the Nord G2 to explain lots of synthesis methods. You can download a G2 demo app for your computer to use: http://www.nordkeyboards.com/downloads/legacy/nord-modular-g2 |
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QuiRobinez Approved Merchant
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2539 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:28 am Post subject: |
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rob_tky wrote: |
My post was referring to sound design/synthesis/sonic side of things.
I have also background in electronics, so I understand basic general ideas (lfo, filters, envelopes, ...), still lots of new concepts to learn.
But having some background in both music and and electronics, does not necessarily make me e.g. sound designer.
So some of the questions I have in my mind were:
- how to develop a "sonic" ear. To know which parameter, or rather which area of parameters to look at, to achieve certain sonic effect, modify the sound to what you imagine in your head..
- or maybe the sound design process is not that structured at all, and it's mostly based on trying things, sometimes even without knowing what they are..
I guess it is a combination of both, knowledge and ... spontanious creativity. It depends on individual too.
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ok, so you want to be a sound designer, that clarifies it
You already have a headstart since you understand the concepts of electronic circuits. The sound designing process is different for everyone, there is no right or wrong method.
the 'sonic' ear reference is developed by recreating a lot of sounds and experimenting. There are lot's of tutorials on youtube where people explain how to create a specific sound (with their own synth), now since a lot of those tutorials are based on substractive synthesis you can easely recreate those also on the kronos despite the fact that the tutorials are made for other synths. It will help you understand the concept of what each parameter does for a sound.
In the parameter manual of the kronos there are also a few tutorials of how to create specific sounds in a specific engine, they are really good and i would suggest trying them out.
Now basically building a sound is really easy, almost any substractive sound uses the following approach:
- select the Oscillator(s), most of the time: Square, Saw, Pulse, Sine or Noise
- modify the sound by using LFO's, Filter and ADSR envelopes
- add effects
Now if you want to dive in more deeply, study the following:
- Oscillators: study the harmonics theory, each waveform sounds different that's because they have different harmonic content. Harmonics are multiple fundamental frequencies. for instance a saw tooth waveform at 100hz (the fundamental) has smaller spikes at 200, 300, 400, etc. Hz. A triangle waveform which plays at 100Hz only has odd harmonics at 300, 500, 700hz, etc.
This is why they all sound so different. If you really want to know what you are doing then it's essential to learn the theory behind this. It gives you the power to analyse sounds and recreating them.
- Filters: with substractive synthesis you have the waveform which has a raw sound and then you apply a filter on it to sculp that sound by removing frequencies of it. There are several filter types with different behavior, study the following types: Low-Pass, High-Pass, Band-Pass, Band-Reject
- ADSR Envelopes: This is how the sound will behave when you play it, will it raise slowly (like pads) or more like a bass sound (short attack), This is quite a fun part of the sound design process because you hear your directly what you are doing.
So the basics are not that hard to learn, what makes it difficult is to create unique sounds as a sound designer. Most sound designers have their own signature sound. Their sounds have a certain flavor over them that makes them recognisable when you hear them. It takes years to develop your own sound signature. Also building sounds is a lot of work. For instance a combi that i create takes more then 40 hours till i'm satisfied. For program sounds it takes between 10 minutes (for recreation of existing sounds) till 4 hours per sound (depending on the sound). It's constantly modifying the sound till it sounds exactly like you have in mind.
The creational proces when i create new sounds it's always based on sounds i have in my mind that were triggered by visual images i've seen on vacation, movies, etc.
So for instance when i see a boat floating in the see than in my mind that transforms to a pad sound where noise oscillators are slowly raising in volume and on top of that S&H Lfo's which are triggering tiny sine sounds which represents the fish in the sea. It's a simple example of how such a process can go.
Another much more simple approach is to rebuild an existing sound, like a lead from a famous song, then it's just a matter of applying the correct oscillator settings, filter and adsr to recreate it. (goes much quicker to create).
Hope this helps you a little bit to dive in to the areas of sound design.
a good tip: The februari edition of a magazine called computer music (is out now) is focusing on sound design, there are lots of great articles in it to get you started. |
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rob_tky Full Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 134
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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LFO, ... Little Fish in the Ocean, , I'll remember that.
Thank you Qui for sharing your experience. It was very interesting to read your impressions.
It did not occur to me that people may think about harmonic frequency analysis when designing sounds, but I see how this can be helpful.
"Sound designer" would probably overstate my goal. I'd like to be more fluent at using this tool.
Computer music magazine looks very interesting too, will check that.
I've been reading param guide bit by bit, though I guess I got overwhelmed by the amount of material, and thus my original post asking how others go about learning this. _________________ Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73 |
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rob_tky Full Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2014 Posts: 134
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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LexCan wrote: | And remember - no matter what you learn as being "correct" and "proper" (technique, chord proressions, harmonies, etc) - if something sounds and feels good to YOU.....it's right. |
jeremykeys wrote: | The most important things to remember is that it is called "playing music" for a reason. To have fun! |
Both of your posts reminded me of this video. It's not about sound design, but the musical side of things, though actually parallels can be drawn beyond music and applied to any creative process. I found it very interesting.
A Master Class in Jazz Performance and Creativity with Pianist Kenny Werner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un3p614XExc _________________ Korg Karma, Korg Kronos 73 |
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SanderXpander Platinum Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 7860
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Moog actually did a course in subtractive synthesis sound design. They since released the "educational" synth they used for the classes; it's called the Werkstatt-01. Worth a look, perhaps they come with some educational material too? |
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