Korg Forums

[valhalla]

I'm trying to find someone that knows anything about sound / patch design, preferably on the Korg Triton or the EXB-Moss board for the Triton. If you know anything will you please respond to this post? It would be great to get a correspondence with someone about sound design but if you don't want to be bothered I would appreciate some information on how to get the information I need. It seems like no one knows anything about sound design or they are just extremely anal about giving anything up about it...

Thanks!

VH

[billbaker]

You need to be more specific than "here's a bucket, dump your brain here, thanks".

A lot of what people know is hands on only; "I can make it jump through hoops roll over and purr but I need to be sitting at my keyboard"

A lot more is subjective; "does this nail that song's string sound, or is this string sound just so ballsy and perfect that I want to use it on everything even if it doesn't sound like the record" - which sound is "right"?

Have you played every sound you have yet?

Have you thought seriously about how you would use it, where it would fit and what emotion or color it conjures right away?

Are there sounds on your keyboard you will NEVER use? [why keep 'em?]

Have you auditioned the several thousand sounds archived here for the Triton series [... and why not] -- what are you drawn to, what's perfect (or close to), what's pure g'dawful drek, and what's going on your board.

Have you analyzed what you like to see how they got a particular sound?

- - - - - - - - -

A lot of "sound design" is actually (IMO) correct application through sound choice or playing technique and has little or no actual sound design.

What do you really want to do?


BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...

[valhalla]

*This is a private message response from BillBaker*

One of the first, and most important facets to try to master is recognition of what the most BASIC form of a sound you hear is.

It's kind of stupid to sit down and go, "that's a clarinet, that's a harp, that's a trumpet", but that recognition and recall is the true beginning of sound design.

Can you do the same for synth sounds? Do you recognize square, triangle and sine sounds (basic building blocks for Moog/Analog synths). What about more complex sounds from various synths and makers?

Can you do the same for Effects? Can you recognize and find and adjust them as they appear in the Extreme's IFX/MFX menu? [Consult a guitar player friend about the qualities of stomp boxes and the importance of order in the chain.]

-------------

You simply (HAH!) reverse that process for stuff in your head... "it's gotta be more trumpet-y sounding, but with an open breathy quality..." and, grasshopper, how do you make that happen?

Back to recognizing those instruments and sounds; the next step is to get to a better understanding of how those instrument identities have associated qualities, eg., the Oberheim / Van Halen "Jump" synth has brass qualities. Cest e'est pas un trumpet... but you can mind-picture a marching band playing those big block chords. And the "pow" of that initial hit is very brass-like. Not to mention that the patch is called Oberheim Brass (duh) so someone at some point recognized that quality, whether they set out to do it or stumbled upon it.

You wouldn't (or would you?) try to make that sound from a piano sample, or a smooth sine wave -- a square wave is a better place to start (but you've gotta be at a point where you recognize the brass-like qualities in a square wave and know whether that will be enough or you want something more realistic or more complex than that simple start point).

The primary feature of the Triton is that it is a ROM-pler. That's a term to describe a synth whose most basic wave-forms are drawn from samples stored in ROM memory. This allows you to use very complex and in many cases more accurate wave forms for things like piano, but is squashes some of the creativity because those same complex samples will have a sameness that is hard to change.

The MOSS, by comparison, uses a basic set of generated wave forms (not samples) which are then manipulated to make the new sound.

Each basic element, whether sample or wave-form has both identity and quality -- how you get different sounds will depend on your knowledge of the follow-on architecture.

So lets look at the example sound design problem "it's gotta be more trumpet-y sounding, but with an open breathy quality..."

How do you get a more trumpet-y sound? Change a wave form (analog)? Add an actual trumpet or layer one in as a subtle background sound (ROM-pler/combi)? Put a very short trumpet transient on the front end (LA) or add a modulator for complexity (FM) or tweak a filter (analog)? If filter works for you do you make it static (filter knob setting) or have it change based on some time element (LFO), other modulator like attack volume or a mod wheel (ASM)?

Is "brass" a playing thing? Play the piccolo trumpet solo from penny lane on any synth that has "square" in the name and a fast (short) attack and you should quickly begin to hear the brassy qualities of a square wave sound. A "sine" will sound clarinet/woody - try something from Peter and the Wolf.
Triangle is violin-ish. How does it sound when used on a melody your brain says should be a trumpet or flute?

Are you looking for more realism or just a quality?

Breathy could be a sound element like formant modulated white noise, an actual breath sample, a choral under-layer. What are those? Are they even available to you (on Extreme)?

Breathy could have nothing to do with lungs and more to do with how a part is played, at what volume, with what complexity and in what "space". A slow, soft, simple trumpet line played with lots of pauses in a huge reverberant virtual environment (listen to Chris Botti on real trumpet) may give you the "breathy" quality you want.

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So that is time doing. And time listening. And developing sound recall. And time with experimentation.

And, yes, you'll be better off starting with just tweaking existing sounds -- look, every adjustment you make is one that the original designer didn't.

Why?

Does your tweak make the sound "better"... for certain values of better? (That's a completely subjective question designed to make you think.)

And just so ya know, tweaking isn't limited to minor adjustments. One trick I like to use is to look at any synth sound on Triton as a wave form + infrastructure.

"Normal" tweaks adjust the infrastructure -- brighter, more sustain, etc. But it is super simple to change the front end wave form (and there are LOTS to chose from on the Extreme) with dramatic and fast results. Will each one be a gem? No, but it may give you a new starting point for making sounds your own, and you'll gain an appreciation of how much the back end actually affects those front end waves.

------------

As an aside: I helps to know some historical data about synth/keyboard architectures [EPs (tine), Clav (plucked string and pickup, DX-series (FM), Moog/Analog (! in all its variations), D50 (Linear Algorithm), Waldorf and Wavestation (wavetable), Melotron (tape! samples), digi-analog modeling, hybids and samplers and plug-ins and ROM-plers, etc.

For example, knowing what the face-plate of a Moog looks like gives you the parameters you adjust to make your "moog-like" sound plausible. Knowing that there was no delay, no effects other than those added in studio... knowing what is an era-appropriate effect... knowing something about who played what on which record, what the solo sounded like, who's been influenced by that sound and where it has reappeared and been re-imagined -- priceless.

Likewise, listening to some of the major players in sound design is helpful. I have my own list of influences. Greg Hawkes from the Cars always played really simple melodies, but whose sounds were so rich and immediately identifiable. Thomas Dolby, who has some really imaginative, almost orchestral layering and again unique sounds. Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson, Stevie Wonder, Ray Manzarek, Steve Winwood, for masterful use of organ, EP, and clavinet - simple instruments with deceptively deep variations in sound and technique.


BB

[valhalla]

Thank you so much for that detailed response. There is a lot of good stuff in there.

I think I have a pretty good sense of breaking down the sounds into what is needed. The information you gave me though, is great and I will keep that to look at and study further. But translating that breakdown into the appropriate parameters is where I need a lot of work.

I only have a rough idea about the waveforms, LFO, EG and the other basic elements of synthesis, but only on a basic level. The thing that overwhelms me is going into the Triton Extreme and looking at all the parameters the way Korg has them set up for the Triton or the EXB-Moss. So if I wanted to (academically), for example, combine some sine waves in different ratios to form another wave, can you even do that? Or am I trying to be too basic given what Korg has given us? I just don't understand the way they have the parameters structured compared to, shall we say, a moog with all the parameters associated with hardware in the form of knobs etc. What would help me tremendously is to have some one break down a patch and show step by step how they created it, along with their thought process. Then watch it, first hand, go from nothing to the end result sound. Once I see it done a couple of times I would be able to emulate and extrapolate the process and keep learning from there. Does that make sense?

I have created a "Jump" sound, and others on my Korg X5D by doing pretty much what you described. But I felt I was just fudging the parameters of what was already there and available to me because I didn't know any other way to get the sounds. I think it's important to know the basics too so you are able to tweak things at a low level if needed. This is my school of thought on knowing, for example, HTML in addition to a higher level interface development tool for web development.


VH

[Triton76]

I program in the Triton Extreme all the time.
Start with an initialized patch and experiment.
Do you know how to program the envelopes and LFO's to affect pitch/filter/amp and assign those to controllers like knobs/buttons/ribbon/aftertouch etc?
That's mostly all I'm doing plus assigning FX.

The MOSS is more complex and unpredictable sometimes

[Triton76]

The other night I was checking out some samples on a CDROM connected to the USB Port. I loaded an overdriven bass multi sample. I used 'Convert to program' to go from Sampling mode to Program mode. it provides a stereo patch with the chosen sample.

In OSC mode I detuned the samples.

in Filter mode: I assigned cutoff to the ribbon. I turned the cuttoff down and the resonance up. I assigned an LFO to cutoff and set that to JS -Y. that LFO was set to MIDI so the Tempo knob controls the speed. I set SW2 to ribbon lock.

In pitch mode: I turned the ribbon amount to zero cuz it is at 2 as a default. I assigned pitch mod to the other LFO and for it to be controlled by JS+X. I enabled portamento and in controller mode assigned a knob to amount.

In IFX mode: I used EQ to Sub OSC to Env FLanger to MOD Delay (assigned to SW1) to Reverb hall. I cranked up the gain and bass on the tube.

then I went an initialized combi and copied the new patch over. then turned timbre 2 to Global and browsed the bass category til I found a suitable layer.

MONSTER NOISE BASS !

[SanderXpander]

I'm confused, Valhalla gave a detailed response to his own question and then thanked himself for it?

[Triton76]

I should point out in Filter and Pitch modes there is a dedicated LFO tab where you set the amounts.

I play this sound with my right hand and work the controls with the left. turn knob 1 to enable portamento. JS+ for vibrato. JS- for Dubstep style filter to lfo mod with Tempo knob controlling the speed. hit SW1 for mod delays.
work the ribbon for cutoff sweeps. hit SW2 to lock the ribbon position.

I layered in another bass patch that had different controller assignments. so I copied that patch then changed controllers to match.

[Triton76]

lol
maybe he cut n paste a PM?

anyway I hope this walk thru was helpful. It was a fun synth jam for me that's for sure!

I didn't mess with the envelopes cuz it can be done manually. Attack and decay are on the screen and release is assigned to one of the knobs.
there were still 3 knobs the slider and aftertouch I didnt use for anything.

[valhalla]

Sorry...I have no friends so I have to message myself....
I had been in private message with BB (BillBaker) and he suggested I post his reply to the forum. So when I did it looks like it came from me. I was wondering if someone was going to catch that...

VH

[billbaker]

RE: The combined sine waves question.

You can build a combi that emulates the stacked sines (or squares or any other shape) similar to what a Hammond organ does. The combo will be identical voices stacked and detuned in octaves to give you a -24, -12, 0, +12, +24 tuning. Then by adjusting volume you can emphasize tones to be harmonically and tonally different. You may also what to consider tuning voices to the 4th 5th 7th 9th of the fundamental tone if you're adventurous. That method is additive rather than subtractive (eg., Moog-style analog subtractive using low pass filtration). Kawai tried additive with variable waves at one point, but without great success in the K-1 synth. [(*) See next post]

The other method - having one sine effect the output of another is FM. Frequency modulation is NOT a feature of the Extreme, but is found on many Yamaha synths in varying degrees, most famously with 6-operators, modulating sine waves in a variety of ways in the DX series. Other FM synths cut down the number of operators to 4-op, featured modulation by non-sine waves, and featured hybrids of FM and ROM-pler synthesis on up to the current Motif/MO series.

Yamaha's not your only choice here; a number of companies now have virtual and hardware versions of the DX(FM) system so you have low cost options if you want to explore this further. And!... FM is a feature of the Kronos and was, if I recall rightly, also (with an optional card) something you could add to Oasys. The additive organ (Hammond... shh!) emulation is also one of Kronos' nine engines.


BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...

[billbaker]

Additive Synthesis:

(* - clarification of last post) The method described - combi made up of ascending (octave or detuned) harmonics is actually... dunno the right word... cumulative rather than true additive.

True additive synthesis allows the selection of one or more waveforms whose inherent harmonics (fundamental, octave, fifth, 2nd octave, major 3rd, minor 3rd...) are then adjusted either as part of a preset (static) or in real time (active) to produce the sound. The synthesis process happens right after the selection of the waveform.

With the triton a similar architecture is there, but you have only two waveforms per program followed by a synthesis process, rather than the 1 with multiple harmonic adjustments that would then be processed which is what you'd find in an additive synth architecture.

So a Hammond organ could be considered an additive process "synth" because the drawbars are adjusting the volumes of the inherent harmonics contained on the tone wheels.

Using the cumulative method the Tritons can effectively mimic the additive process, especially with identical (but for tuning) programs like organ, but all of the programing is done ahead of the selection/adjustment process. Really, you're adding together several fully realized ROM-pler programs rather than building a single program (which is why it's put together as a combi and not a program).

I hope that makes things a little clearer. You DO have wave form emulations of additive, FM, mechanical, and acoustic instruments, but with the extreme, ROM-pler is the only synth architecture.

Yes, you can add EXB-MOSS with its own, distinct and different architecture, but for true additive, acoustic modeling or FM synthesis you'll have to add a module or virtual instrument.

Or get a Kronos.




BB
_________________
billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...