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Using Triton Combis in 2012; more efficient way?
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sam metal



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Using Triton Combis in 2012; more efficient way? Reply with quote

My band has been dormant for several years, but is about to start playing shows again.

I bought the Triton is 2007, made a ton of custom combis, programs, etc. We played shows until 2009 when the 'break' happened.

Now it's 2012 and I don't really want to lug a 50 lb keyboard + case around on tour. What options do I have? Can I somehow get a Triton Extreme emulator? Can I match up Combis with sounds in Reason or something else?

I'm into using a midi controller so at least I'm not risking putting the heavy beast front and center on stage (we play pretty raucous shows), but I figured by now there would be a way to export the sounds into something more compact. I'm aware of the Triton Rack but not sure how much it can handle (plus, no tube).

Suggestions from any one? Thank you!
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam,

As a more roadable alternative to the Extreme you could conceivably replicate it with a lighter controller and a Triton Rack - you would need to install several now rare(ish) EXB boards - Piano, Orchestral, Studio, Dance Extreme, Vintage and Synths.

That would give you (forgive me) an Extremely capable clone that could be set up to play all of your combis, keeping the combi format and the korg sounds. The Extreme and the Rack share the same number of banks and programs-combis so they are fairly equal in capabilities other than the Extreme's expanded ROM. You'd want to use a good librarian program to get the programs in the correct order - but once that's done all the current combis would work so there'd be no additional programming.

Initially, you could set things up with just the Rack + NO cards ... just put a sound with the right category type (strings is strings, piano is piano) in the right program locations and all of your current PCG and combis would work - no reprogramming of combis needed.

IMO duplicating combis in another (non-korg) module would take way more work than I'd be willing to put in, but if you must go even smaller the lightest Korg alternative is the (Trinity) TR-rack @ 1 space. Keep in mind tho' that the .pcg formats are not compatible.

------------

Replicating the Extreme using a controller and other sound source would depend on two things; the architecture of the controller and the sounds available in the alternative synth engine.

I think it's safe to say that there are a lot of alternatives in hardware or software.

The Yamaha Motif series racks are single space, high quality and broad palate sources. IMO you're better off looking for hardware because it's less vulnerable to power and CPU issues. That stability is important in live play situations.

If you do choose to go the software route tho' there are suites like NI's Komplete that would completely fill the role.

The other thing you want to look at is whether the controller (or your alternative synth) will "do" combi-type (performance) set-ups with all the parameters that a combi has; zone, split, layer, velocity, etc. -- how many in memory and how easily programmed.

As I said before, if it was me I'd try to stay in the Korg camp as much as possible so I could do the least amount of work to get back to what I have already on the Extreme.


BB
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billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
+E-mu, Alesis, Korg, Kawai, Yamaha, Line-6, TC Elecronics, Behringer, Lexicon...
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS:

The tube is used fairly lightly on most combis, I think you'd only really miss it on organs and guitar emulations -- how much doe that impact what you want to do?


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billbaker

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xmlguy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The X50 is a good possibility, depending on whether the multisamples you used for your combis are on it and how many FX you used at one time. It's a big step up from a midi controller in power, but is ultra portable for a Triton ROMpler.
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michelkeijzers
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't miss the tube really when moving from the Extreme to the M50.
On the other hand, at that time it was an improvement over my old N264.

It looks that DSP/effect processors have gained a lot in quality being able to emulate the tube (more than) good enough.
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SanderXpander
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tube, to me, really is more of a gimmick and a marketing move against the critique that Korg keyboards sound(ed) cold/not warm.

I don't think there's a single combi where it's really musically necessary for me. But that's just me.
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dalekay
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tube used here still.
A item that might help if this effect is desired still is an ART Tube Preamp.
Tube MP(s) in use here along with other guitar pedals that use a tube or two.

Dale

Dale
dale@inquisitorbetrayer.com
Palmdale CA
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a follow-up - saw recently a triton rack at ebay for $500 - buy-it-now.

Add Studio (02), Dance (04), Vintage Keys (05), and Trance Attack (09) at roughly $100 to $200 each and you've got a "close-to-Extreme" rack in the $1100 ballpark.

Acoustic Pianos you already have in ROM - the ones on the EXB card are better, but you can live with the ROM versions if you need to. Same for strings and orchestral instruments (GM?) that are at least OK for now.

The 4 cards above give you a heavily pop/synth weighted sound palate that will actually give you some things that the Extreme left off -- drum kits and some SFX multi-samples.

You should be able to lift the Extreme's arp and drum sections intact and fully load 'em up on the Rack.

And once more, you just have top put in program banks with sounds (programs) in the correct order to be able to load your Extreme Combi's .pcg with no further programming required.



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billbaker

Triton Extreme 88, Triton Classic Pro, Trinity V3 Pro
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sam metal



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all, and thank you so much for the responses.

Bill - is there a way I can verify that I would need the additional cards? What if the Programs I'm using in my combis are already in the Triton Rack? How could I tell?

I don't need drum stuff; I just play ambient/orchestral stuff in a metal band.
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sam metal



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
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Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this the card I would need to make the rack equivalent to the TeX?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KORG-EXB-PCM-04-DANCE-EXTREME-for-TRITON-TRITON-STUDIO-KARMA-EXTREME-LE-TR-/140752568063?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c581beff#ht_684wt_1397
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sam metal



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or, could I just get generic ram and load these files to it?

http://www.korg.co.uk/support/downloads/EXB-PCM_dl.php

I have a TeX with full ram right now but I'm guessing TeX ram is not Rack ram.
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xmlguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must have the 88 key version, which is 64 lbs. The heaviness is due to the weighted keybed and size you have.

The 61 key is half the weight, at 32lbs. Most of that weight is due to having a very high quality synth action keybed with aftertouch.

So if you indeed have the 88, I would highly recommend that you keep it at home/studio for the nice hammer action, and then buy a 61 key TrEx for gigs. 32lbs is much easier to haul around, but you'll still have all that TrEx goodness built-in. And I love the tube. It can significantly improve the sound if you learn to use it properly to give more bass depth and an analog warmth to lots of programs, in addition to the overdrive effect. The tube often isn't even turned on for a lot of programs that could benefit from it, so going through the programs to tweak the valveforce parameters with your monitors and PA is essential to appreciate the benefits. Out-of-the-box, the tube is a gimmick. When carefully tweaked for programs, it's certainly no gimmick.
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sam metal



Joined: 27 Apr 2007
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Location: Louisville, KY

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, I actually have the 61 key. You're right, it's not 50 lbs, but with case and accessories it is. My band has a ridiculous amount of gear, and our live shows can get kind of crazy. I want to build a custom stand (think NIN or Gravity Kills) that I can get crazier with, without having to worry about the sensitive electronics of the TeX. The tube is cool, I agree.
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xmlguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get better dollies. Keep the TrEx 61.
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billbaker
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam,
You posed a couple of interesting questions. I'll take a stab at answering.

What do I need?:

I recommended EXB's 2, 4, 5, and 9 - those are the four most useful in my opinion and the ones that deliver the best results over and above the standard Triton ROM, and which get you closest to the ROM featured on the Extreme - the greatest variety, the most useable palate, the most wave samples, the most drum kits; the "bang" factor.

I admit, my list is heavily weighted to the synth end of the scale - a mix of acoustic and synth tones will get you the big orchestral sound, particularly if precise orchestral fidelity is not your primary aim (and hey, lets consider, symphonic metal wants massive more than it wants realistic).

I feel like acoustic instruments (winds / strings) are pretty fairly represented by the standard ROM which is why the orchestral set was not on my list; the orchestral EXB sucks at making synth tones -- thus my recommendation.

The EXB-04 you cited off of E-bay was one of the four.

Just how close to Extreme can I get?:

The Extreme covers all of the Triton Classic's program voices exactly - 4 banks - and all of the factory combis as well.

Put in the first 8 EXBs and you can cover everything on the Extreme and more... double bullseye.

The Extreme's "extra" voices are pretty much the EXB voices exactly -- so it is likely that you could simply compare EXB and Extreme voice name lists and make a very good guess at which EXB's each belonged to and which EXB you'd need to install in order to have a given sound... for example the Extreme's A Program Bank copies the Piano and Keyboard EXB's.

If you wanted those voices exactly you'd need the Grand Piano and Keyboards EXB's (#9 and #1).

Consider, tho': some waves (EXB samples) are more-or-less generic - any instrument having a GM version may not be stellar but will be useable. Acoustic Piano is one of these in both it's GM and Stereo Piano forms found in the standard ROM. So even without the EXB waves from the Grand Piano EXB you could use the remaining program infrastructure from the Extreme program to make a decent sound just by dropping in a standard piano (or other) sample from ROM or one of the other 4 EXB's.

Woodwinds, solo brass, ensemble strings also fall into this category - they're in the ROM and can be dropped into any program. More specific sounds -- muted trumpet, solo violin, sax, string techniques (pizzicato, marcato, tremolo, various attacks), harp glissandos and choir voices are harder to quantify. How valuable are these to you? How much more "real" do you need your oboe to sound?


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billbaker

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