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DZarob
Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 47
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 Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:47 am Post subject: |
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McHale I think you just have some sick need to make people angry. I don't understand. Wish you would stop with your 'technique' advice/opinion already.
People, including me, paid over $3500 for a keyboard that has problems. What part of that don't you get? People are frustrated.
Like I've said more than once in this thread, I've played keyboards for 25 years, acoustic pianos, organs, weighted synths, non weighted synths. Korgs Rolands Yamahas, the whole gamut. Not once did I ever experience the phenomenon that the problematic Kronos keybeds have.
PEOPLE JUST STOP REPLYING TO ANYTHING THIS GUY SAYS. It's the only way he will be quiet.
I won't be replying anymore. |
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Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | you guys crack me up. I'm not trying to say the Kronos is perfect, I've pointed out that pianos do it too (with proof) and people don't want to believe it. I explain that based on Korg's number (at the last time reported) that roughly 1% are having the problem, but people don't want to believe it. I've offered suggestions on how to play the Kronos so it doesn't have the problem while we wait for Korg to officially address the issue and they complain that they shouldn't have to.
What do you want out of this thread? Just for the very very very few of you who do nothing but complain to repeat yourselves over and over and over again? Or would you like to discuss what the issues could be (to narrow down what the cause is and OH MY GOD, MAYBE OFFER SOME ASSISTANCE TO KORG IN TROUBLESHOOTING) and have a workaround while we wait?
Well, either I have a magical Kronos that has a different keybed design so mine works perfectly or I'm doing something differently so mine doesn't have the issue. If you guys don't want to try to figure out the issue and would just rather complain to people who aren't listening, be my guest. Remember, I'm merely trying to help (that's what community based forums are SUPPOSED to be for). If you constant complainers never get your keybeds working to your satisfaction, mine works perfectly so I gain nothing either way.
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You pointed out that pianos do it too? It's nice how you like to gloss over the pertinent detail. Upright pianos, BUT NOT grand pianos, can suffer from double striking if they are poorly regulated or if the player mistakenly or purposely releases at the point of escapement. It happens because of the design of a single escapement mechanism, which has no relation to the design of the RH3. The RH3 neither has nor emulates escapement. Furthermore the audible effect is completely different from what is going on with the Kronos.
I don't think anyone doubts that at the time Rich made his announcement the REPORTED rate was less than 1%. Nevertheless, anyone with the most basic faith in probability realizes the final tally isn't going to be 1%. Rich even stated that they had just become aware of the issue and made a request for information from users with the problem. That should have made it clear that the reported rate of 1% was more damage control than information.
The suggestions you made on how to fix the the cutoff issue does not fix the issue for me. It leads me to believe that you have mistaken the generally sloppy design of the RH3 with the problem that users are experiencing. Yes, if you play in a feeble manner on purpose you can make any keyboard sound like random notes are getting muted because their is no consistency in the force you are exerting from key to key. That isn't what is happening for me and many other users. Specific keys are exhibiting the behavior regardless of which finger is used and the only way to use those keys consistently is to avoid them entirely.
Lastly, you don't have a magical Kronos. You have one that doesn't have the note cutoff issue. What exactly is it that you are looking to get out of this thread?
_________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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MartinHines
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:25 am Post subject: |
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What is important here is (a) Korg recognizes there is a problem with some units, (b) they are working on a fix and (c) they will post an update here when they have something more concrete to say.
I certainly would not want to have a defective keyboard, and if I did I would be anxious for an update. I am confident that Korg is working to resolve the issue as quickly as they can.
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** KORG Product Support Contacts **
(they support BOTH hardware and software)
Korg USA Product support -- https://www.korgusa.com/contactus (For fastest service I would suggest calling them on the phone)
Outside the U.S. contact your Korg Country Distributor -- https://www.korg.com/us/corporate/distributors/ |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce Lychee wrote: | | What exactly is it that you are looking to get out of this thread? |
PERSONALLY, not a thing. I was trying to help others troubleshoot what the issue is for those that are suffering it and possibly help them understand why it can do it. WAY WAY WAY early in the thread I asked if anyone with 100 miles of me had the problem so I could bring mine to compare the two and see what the difference is. I realize it's hard for those who just come here to complain to realize that people are genuinely trying to be helpful, but to get angry, call names and act like idiots does nothing to resolve the issue or help Korg troubleshoot the problem.
Unlike several of you here, I don't come to forums to simply use it as a platform to complain. Please don't condemn those who are trying to help because they aren't complaining as loudly and irrationally as you (collectively, not you personally) are.
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha).
Last edited by McHale on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| DZarob wrote: | | I won't be replying anymore. |
Thank you. Adults are talking.
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| JFree wrote: | | If you're one of the 1% that doesn't have a problem, yay you, for the rest of us, it's a drag and we await a fix so we can fully enjoy this great instrument. |
It's not 1% that don't have the problem, it's 1% that DO (have reported at that time anyway) the problem. But it's certainly not the majority of KRONOS owners having the problem. Thousands and thousands have been sold worldwide, so far I'm counting about a couple dozen people with the issue. Please don't make assumptions that everyone has the problem.
We tried earlier to narrow it down by serial number as well as which RH3 sticker was on the keybed. Because a select few can't be rational, we didn't get very far.
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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d3k
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:42 am Post subject: |
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1.) 0013xx
2.) RH3 Japan sticker on the rightmost key
3.) I have the problem and it's annoying
4.) No specific keys; repros on most keys
5.) Can avoid the issue if I play loud and hard
6.) Feel like a robot when playing to avoid the issue; it's no longer music
7.) Never had a problem with any upright, grand, or any other type of piano
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Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | Bruce Lychee wrote: | | What exactly is it that you are looking to get out of this thread? |
PERSONALLY, not a thing. I was trying to help others troubleshoot what the issue is for those that are suffering it and possibly help them understand why it can do it. WAY WAY WAY early in the thread I asked if anyone with 100 miles of me had the problem so I could bring mine to compare the two and see what the difference is. I realize it's hard for those who just come here to complain to realize that people are genuinely trying to be helpful, but to get angry, call names and act like idiots does nothing to resolve the issue or help Korg troubleshoot the problem.
Unlike several of you here, I don't come to forums to simply use it as a platform to complain. Please don't condemn those who are trying to help because they aren't complaining as loudly and irrationally as you (collectively, not you personally) are. |
I completely understand that you were initially trying to help, but I think many users with the problem have told you that your fix does not fix the issue. Instead of reading what users are saying you continue to insist this can be remedied by modifying technique. I don't see how that is useful at all.
Furthermore, if you are going to chide people for their behavior you should mind your own. You are calling people idiots and complaining about people complaining.
I don't think you have a Kronos with a note cutoff issue which is why I think you have mistakenly determined that you have an answer for those that do.
_________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce Lychee wrote: | I completely understand that you were initially trying to help, but I think many users with the problem have told you that your fix does not fix the issue. Instead of reading what users are saying you continue to insist this can be remedied by modifying technique. I don't see how that is useful at all.
Furthermore, if you are going to chide people for their behavior you should mind your own. You are calling people idiots and complaining about people complaining.
I don't you have a Kronos with a note cutoff issue which is why I think you have mistakenly determinded that you have an answer for those that do. |
seriously man, don't twist my words, I haven't called a single person an idiot the entire time I've been on Korg Forums.
I have stated several times that playing technique CAN cause it because MANY people aren't reading the thread beyond what they type. Several have read that and demanded that it was impossible for a real piano to do it so I pointed to non Kronos hating websites that discuss it and how ANY piano CAN do it. If the thread were rational and on topic, there'd be no reason to reiterate things for those who don't read or refuse to listen to facts.
I have also never said that mine doesn't do it because I have proper technique and other keybeds are because people do not. For some reason, people aren't willing to even bother troubleshooting (though some have said that when they adjusted technique, the problem went away - see I do read). In attempting to troubleshoot the issue, I've opened my Kronos and studied the hammer mechanism on the weighted keys (which is VERY close to a real hammer action on a piano and unlike many keybeds that merely use weights glued to keys to simulate a weighted action) simply to figure out what the issue is.
But if people here would rather I not troubleshoot the problem and try to get a simple answer from those who have all day to post a novel on why Korg sucks, you clearly are hear to complain and not try to resolve the issue.
Ironically, several have PM'd me with useful info so I can troubleshoot because this thread is a joke (their words, not mine). I'm really really sorry I am trying to help and ask questions and point out similarities to real pianos. I am a horrible, horrible person. Please go back to your "Korg is the worst thing since Hitler and anybody that doesn't agree is a stupid fanboy" rants. It's obviously more useful to some.
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha). |
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Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | Bruce Lychee wrote: | I completely understand that you were initially trying to help, but I think many users with the problem have told you that your fix does not fix the issue. Instead of reading what users are saying you continue to insist this can be remedied by modifying technique. I don't see how that is useful at all.
Furthermore, if you are going to chide people for their behavior you should mind your own. You are calling people idiots and complaining about people complaining.
I don't you have a Kronos with a note cutoff issue which is why I think you have mistakenly determinded that you have an answer for those that do. |
seriously man, don't twist my words, I haven't called a single person an idiot the entire time I've been on Korg Forums.
I have stated several times that playing technique CAN cause it because MANY people aren't reading the thread beyond what they type. Several have read that and demanded that it was impossible for a real piano to do it so I pointed to non Kronos hating websites that discuss it and how ANY piano CAN do it. If the thread were rational and on topic, there'd be no reason to reiterate things for those who don't read or refuse to listen to facts.
I have also never said that mine doesn't do it because I have proper technique and other keybeds are because people do not. For some reason, people aren't willing to even bother troubleshooting (though some have said that when they adjusted technique, the problem went away - see I do read). In attempting to troubleshoot the issue, I've opened my Kronos and studied the hammer mechanism on the weighted keys (which is VERY close to a real hammer action on a piano and unlike many keybeds that merely use weights glued to keys to simulate a weighted action) simply to figure out what the issue is.
But if people here would rather I not troubleshoot the problem and try to get a simple answer from those who have all day to post a novel on why Korg sucks, you clearly are hear to complain and not try to resolve the issue.
Ironically, several have PM'd me with useful info so I can troubleshoot because this thread is a joke (their words, not mine). I'm really really sorry I am trying to help and ask questions and point out similarities to real pianos. I am a horrible, horrible person. Please go back to your "Korg is the worst thing since Hitler and anybody that doesn't agree is a stupid fanboy" rants. It's obviously more useful to some. |
I quoted you, how am I twisting your words around? Saying people act like idiots and calling them idiots is really no different.
The sites you link do not say any piano can do it. They explain why it can happen on uprights because of the single escapement mechanism, which has no relation to the RH3. The single escapement mechanism is also considered a compromise necessitated by the design of uprights, so not really the best example in any case.
People have definitely gone through troubleshooting. I spefically told you it happens on specific keys regardless of how it is pressed, which should make it clear that technique is not going to help it. Furthermore, given that opening up the Kronos can void the warranty, why would a user want to open up the Kronos when they already have an issue? So they can bring it in and be told they caused the issue? Doesn't seem like a sensible move, which is why we are waiting for Korg to resolve the matter.
No need to bring the pity party on yourself. I have never made Korg out to be anything like Hitler. In fact, I don't really have an issue with how they have handled things outside of some less than stellar communication. I'm not sure what you are talking about there.
_________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64
Last edited by Bruce Lychee on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:46 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Hooch
Junior Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 99
Location: Northern California USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:25 am Post subject: |
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After trying reading this forever thread I have strong feelings that
the keybed really is faulty.
I've done tests with velocity, EQ, piano types, monitors, MIDI, Yamaha, Roland, Novation, Sequential Circuits, everything I can to rule out
the keybed.
It's the keybed damn it. It releases and strikes way too low in travel allowing a double strike.
WAY too low.
Hooch
Last edited by Hooch on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sparkie
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 743
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: |
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Excuse Mr McHale because he cant understand that its Korgs obligation and responsibility to fix the keybed problem...not the one who bought it!!
Nobody wants to "Troubleshoot" and take apart, remove keys etc, a keyboard they just paid $4K for..except him.
And lets see a show of hands that believe only 1% of the keybeds have the problem..lets see..McHale, Hines....anyone else?
And I promise not to twist his words..,,,his comment "Thousands and thousands have been sold worldwide, so far I'm counting about a couple dozen people with the issue." |
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McHale
Platinum Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 2487
Location: B.F.E.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| sparkie wrote: | Excuse Mr McHale because he cant understand that its Korgs obligation and responsibility to fix the keybed problem...not the one who bought it!!
Nobody wants to "Troubleshoot" and take apart, remove keys etc, a keyboard they just paid $4K for..except him.
And lets see a show of hands that believe only 1% of the keybeds have the problem..lets see..McHale, Hines....anyone else?
And I promise not to twist his words..,,,his comment "Thousands and thousands have been sold worldwide, so far I'm counting about a couple dozen people with the issue." |
Why are you here exactly? Do you even have a Kronos?
I'm sorry if asking the question or asking to test "if you play lower on the keys, does it do it?" is too troublesome for some of you who feel it is beneath you or too complicated. If that's the case, I would HIGHLY suggest you take the Kronos back because something as complicated as the Kronos will always give you problems and you'll flood our forums with never ending rants. Out of the 75+ pages in this thread, it could be cleaned up to about 3 if you removed everything but legitimate discussion of the issue.
And as far as the 1% number you have a problem with, would you agree that Korg have sold at least 5000 KRONOS with RH3 keybeds worldwide? So out of the 1% (which is 50 people sparkie if performing math is also something you feel you don't have the time to do), shouldn't we see more than a dozen or two dozen people complaining on here and all other forums on the entire internet? What do YOU think the numbers are, assuming we're being lied to by Korg?
And why would you possibly care if I choose to open my Kronos to try to help people? Is that a bannable offense that I'm unaware of? Please school me sparkie... Your wisdom never disappoints.
If there is no more troubleshooting to do and nothing new to discuss, we can finally close this thread. Awesome!
_________________
Current Korg Gear: KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), SQ-64, DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, 3x nanoPad 2, 3x DS1H, 7x PS1, FC7 (yes Korg, NOT Yamaha).
Last edited by McHale on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JFree
Full Member
Joined: 21 Aug 2011
Posts: 202
Location: Walden, NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: |
And as far as the 1% number you have a problem with, would you agree that Korg have sold at least 5000 KRONOS with RH3 keybeds worldwide? So out of the 1% (which is 500 people sparkie if performing math is also something you feel you don't have the time to do), shouldn't we see more than a dozen or two dozen people complaining on here and all other forums on the entire internet? What do YOU think the numbers are, assuming we're being lied to by Korg?
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my abacus actually says that 500 would be 10% and 50 would be 1%, and the highest serial number on the Karma site is 2878-not sure if that counts 61 keys also, or whether that's accurate to all. So that would bring it down to 28.78 with a problem.
Last edited by JFree on Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ten2One
Full Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
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1% of 5000 is 50 and if your helpful findings are in any way connected to your math skills, eh, I'll pass!
I believe there are more Kronos that have shown to be defective than that. Several have had or had experience with 2 or more defective units. But that's not the point. Korg has released a product that many are having trouble with and their silence beyond the date they indicated would provide a solution is problematic.
I appreciate the efforts of those who have been trying to find solutions but some want to be praised while they level insults at those they supossedly are trying to help. There is no room to pat their back until they remove their own hand (IMHO).
Ten2One |
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