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Kim
Full Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 106
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 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| danmusician wrote: | | Bruce Lychee wrote: |
Double striking can happen on an upright when it is poorly regulated or when the player mistakenly/intentionally releases at the point of escapement rather than pressing down completely on the key. RH3 doesn't even have escapement let alone try to emulate the escapement feeling. I'm not sure why you think this is relevant to what is going on with the RH3.
The lengthy discussion of the difference between escapement and double escapement has even less to do with the issue. The double escapement mechanism that allows for partial release repeats is the very reason double strikes don't happen on grand pianos. |
It's relevant because folks have posted relentlessly saying that real pianos never double strike. Well, guess what... they do!
When I first brought up the issue of technique, I said essentially what you said here. If the player doesn't hold the key at the bottom of the keybed, the double bounce will occur. There may not be an escapement mechanism, but it does double bounce if not held at the bottom of the bed.
As I have played my K73 and observed the phenomenon, I've come to the conclusion that the instrument actually speaks too early in the key throw. The player hears the tone and the fingers respond by stopping too soon. Keep in mind, I'm talking VERY minuscule dimensions here, maybe less than millimeter.
McHale has been flamed for defending Korg. He and I are just trying to cut through the hype and find the facts. On the other hand, several members seem extremely offended that technique might solve the issue. Please understand that we are not saying that anyone has bad technique.
We're not saying that the problem is caused by technique. We're saying it's solved by a slight adjustment to technique. |
I don't understand how it would be solved by a slight adjustment to technique. I can play very fast passages using little force. This is important when playing songs with large variations in dynamics. With the Kronos, it's impossible to combine soft touch with fast playing. I get the stacato effect all the time. So no, it's impossible to solve this dilemma by "a slight adjustment to technique". If I played only slow passages, this might be the case. |
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Rocness
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danmusician
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 875
Location: Southern PA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kim wrote: | | I don't understand how it would be solved by a slight adjustment to technique. I can play very fast passages using little force. This is important when playing songs with large variations in dynamics. With the Kronos, it's impossible to combine soft touch with fast playing. I get the stacato effect all the time. So no, it's impossible to solve this dilemma by "a slight adjustment to technique". If I played only slow passages, this might be the case. |
If the passages are that fast, how are you hearing the effect? You're likely releasing the key before the bounce.
I've worked on playing fast passages. The answer is to play through the bottom of the key. When playing rapidly and softly, it is easy to release before you truly reach to bottom of the key. That's why I mentioned that I think the notes sound to early in the key throw, making you feel like you've played deep enough when in fact, you have not.
On an acoustic piano, it can be easy to try to play rapid soft notes and not have a key actually sound because you haven't gone deep enough through the key throw. On the Kronos, instead of getting no sound you get a double bounce. In either case, by adjusting technique, the player can achieve the desired result.
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Kronos 2 88, Kronos Classic 73, PX-5S, Kronos 2 61, Roli Seaboard Rise 49 |
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sparkie
Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 743
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocness wrote: | | Could it be possible that the major earthquake that Japan had right near the Korg warehouse has something to do with all of the problems the Kronos is having because I remember the earthquake happen around the same time the Kronos was ready to ship ? |
AHA Rocness, I think you made a good point!! If you remember even at first the 73s and 88s were supposed to arrive at the same time as the 61s. But, they were delayed and didnt arrive when they were suppose to, arriving a few months later.
Also it was reported that some keybeds had "Made In Japan" on them and some didnt. Possible that maybe a 73/88 parts supplier lost its facility to the earthquake and Korg had to find parts elsewhere? This would explain why some have the problem and some dont.. i.e. parts being made at different location or with different materials..or specs. |
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keyplayer14
Full Member
Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 160
Location: Exeter
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | keyplayer14 wrote: | | Sorry, can't agree with this. Technique is rarely the issue unless it's EXTEMELY poor. |
You're wrong. Using Google will tell you this. But don't let facts stand in the way of a good lynching. Googling "double strike piano technique" gave me these results at the very top:
http://www.kenfoster.com/PianoTuning/Technique.html
It is also important that you allow your fingers to continue down to the key bed, even though your hammer has already been released. This is a safety feature that is regulated into a well maintained piano allowing the action parts to reset themselves (referred to as aftertouch). If this is not done, you might be experiencing double strikes, poor tone and sluggish repetition.
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Forum/3/topic/002951/Number/0/site_id/1#import
In the discussion titled, "How do I fix double striking in an upright?", you'll read this:
Any technician can "fake" double striking in a piano by knowing just when to stop pressing the key. While it is entirely possible that some action parameters have fallen short, it is also equally possible that the pianist feels the point of escapement (also called "let-off") of the action and when attempting to play very softly and stops pressing the key at that point. The hammer then rebounds on top of the jack. Americans call this "hammer bobbling", the French Canadians call it "dancing".
And *WHY* does that happen:
http://www.piano-play-it.com/piano-techniques.html
Piano Technique - Escapement mechanism!
The piano action involves a special "escapement mechanism": Just an instant before the hammer strikes the string, the hammer "escapes" from its connection with the key; hence it bounces back a little bit after striking the string. When you release the key, the hammer goes back to its original position and is ready for the next time you play it..
The special double-repetition mechanism of the grand piano
In grand pianos the action is more complicated. It is based on a double-repetition mechanism: After the hammer strikes the string, the lever catches the hammer again close to the string, and by that enables you to play key again immediately.
Let me try and explain in a different way,
In upright pianos, if you want to play the same key again, you have to release it almost up to its original position, while in grand pianos you just have to lift up the key a little bit in order to play it again. This special mechanism enables various piano technique the envolve very fast repetitions on the same key and fast trills. |
Thanks for the lessons on technique and piano mechanics, both of which I'm aware of and both of which prove nothing in relation to what we were actually talking about.
I never claimed that double striking couldn't be produced by poor technique - only that, in the real world regulation issues are a more common cause, because once you understand the importance of the weight of the arm and playing through the key you have the means to control the problem. Which is not to say that it can't occur, but if you're producing double strikes consistently on a properly regulated instrument then you're doing something fundamentally wrong.
I can't speak for anyone else's technique but I don't personally reproduce this problem on any of the acoustic pianos that I'm currently called on to play, only on the Kronos, and to try and equate the two situations is in any case a laughable argument.
Hopefully Korg will come up with a better answer than this nonsense.
_________________
Korg Kronos 88, Trinity Plus, Wavestation SR, X5D, M1
Roland RD 700, V-Synth GT, Jupiter 80, JV 1080
Akai MPD32, Cubase 5, NI Komplete, Spectrasonics Omnisphere, Stylus RMX |
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Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| danmusician wrote: | | Bruce Lychee wrote: |
Double striking can happen on an upright when it is poorly regulated or when the player mistakenly/intentionally releases at the point of escapement rather than pressing down completely on the key. RH3 doesn't even have escapement let alone try to emulate the escapement feeling. I'm not sure why you think this is relevant to what is going on with the RH3.
The lengthy discussion of the difference between escapement and double escapement has even less to do with the issue. The double escapement mechanism that allows for partial release repeats is the very reason double strikes don't happen on grand pianos. |
It's relevant because folks have posted relentlessly saying that real pianos never double strike. Well, guess what... they do!
When I first brought up the issue of technique, I said essentially what you said here. If the player doesn't hold the key at the bottom of the keybed, the double bounce will occur. There may not be an escapement mechanism, but it does double bounce if not held at the bottom of the bed.
As I have played my K73 and observed the phenomenon, I've come to the conclusion that the instrument actually speaks too early in the key throw. The player hears the tone and the fingers respond by stopping too soon. Keep in mind, I'm talking VERY minuscule dimensions here, maybe less than millimeter.
McHale has been flamed for defending Korg. He and I are just trying to cut through the hype and find the facts. On the other hand, several members seem extremely offended that technique might solve the issue. Please understand that we are not saying that anyone has bad technique.
We're not saying that the problem is caused by technique. We're saying it's solved by a slight adjustment to technique. |
Pointing out that uprights can double strike is one thing. Trying to compare it to what is going on with the RH3 is another. If anything, understanding the function of escapement should make it clear that the two are unrelated.
The fact that upright pianos can be made to double strike because of the way the escapement mechanism works is an understandable phenomenon given the way upright pianos are designed. Grand pianos don't do this because of the double escapement mechanism.
The note cutoff that is happening on the RH3 is an entirely different phenomenon. There is no escapement mechanism and the audible result is completely different than what happens when you double strike an upright. Regardless of what others might have said regarding double strikes on acoustics, trying to use it as an example to justify the note cutoffs on the RH3 is ridiculous.
I know exactly what McHale is talking about regarding pressing the RH3 all the way. If you try to emulate an extremely feeble key press you can get the RH3 to sound like a note got muted. That can be recreated on any piano, including a grand piano. That isn't what is going on for those with the RH3 cutoff issue.
On the RH3, the issue is happening on specific keys, regardless of how the key is pressed and which finger is used. How do you explain that? Modifying technique does nothing to cure the problem. It sounds like you are mistaking what you discovered by not properly pressing the key with what is going on with the note-cutoff issue. This isn't about bad technique. It is about bad design or manufacturing on a flagship keyboard.
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Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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d3k
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce Lychee wrote: | | On the RH3, the issue is happening on specific keys, regardless of how the key is pressed and which finger is used. How do you explain that? Modifying technique does nothing to cure the problem. It sounds like you are mistaking what you discovered by not properly pressing the key with what is going on with the note-cutoff issue. This isn't about bad technique. It is about bad design or manufacturing on a flagship keyboard. |
Hmm. Maybe there are different problems going on? My cutoff issue sounds and acts just like the various Youtube videos. I can repro playing slowly/softly exactly the way it is done on the videos. But if I play through the bottom of the key, I can't repro.. but like Kim said, this makes it very difficult for me to play fast/soft passages. For me, it matters how the key is pressed, but the little tolerance before the dampening effect kicks in + the force on the rebound makes it very hard to play in a manner that prevents the issue. |
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Bruce Lychee
Platinum Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 856
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| d3k wrote: | | Bruce Lychee wrote: | | On the RH3, the issue is happening on specific keys, regardless of how the key is pressed and which finger is used. How do you explain that? Modifying technique does nothing to cure the problem. It sounds like you are mistaking what you discovered by not properly pressing the key with what is going on with the note-cutoff issue. This isn't about bad technique. It is about bad design or manufacturing on a flagship keyboard. |
Hmm. Maybe there are different problems going on? My cutoff issue sounds and acts just like the various Youtube videos. I can repro playing slowly/softly exactly the way it is done on the videos. But if I play through the bottom of the key, I can't repro.. but like Kim said, this makes it very difficult for me to play fast/soft passages. For me, it matters how the key is pressed, but the little tolerance before the dampening effect kicks in + the force on the rebound makes it very hard to play in a manner that prevents the issue. |
Are you experiencing it on specific keys or on any key pressed that way? My problems are isolated to specific keys.
_________________
Shigeru Kawai SK5
Roland Jupiter 80
Vintage Vibe 64 |
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MartinHines
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| rrricky rrrecordo wrote: | | I was banned because you wanted to fight me in your garage and I accepted the "challenge"... you were going to smack me upside my head with a plank or something as I recall... |
Ricky,
You must have me confused with someone else. I have NEVER suggested anything violent.
Please provide proof of your accusation, or provide me a written apology. Please also send me a check for $1,000 to cover my pain and suffering. Also, you have made me cry  and my tears have rusted the metal casing on my Kronos. Ummm... upon further thought, make that $5,000 now since I will have to buy a replacement Kronos.
P.S. -- If you don't pay up, I will have the Royal Canadian Mounted Police come get you at your studio, in front of your students. Your shame will be unbearable. 
_________________
** KORG Product Support Contacts **
(they support BOTH hardware and software)
Korg USA Product support -- https://www.korgusa.com/contactus (For fastest service I would suggest calling them on the phone)
Outside the U.S. contact your Korg Country Distributor -- https://www.korg.com/us/corporate/distributors/ |
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d3k
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce Lychee wrote: | | d3k wrote: | | Bruce Lychee wrote: | | On the RH3, the issue is happening on specific keys, regardless of how the key is pressed and which finger is used. How do you explain that? Modifying technique does nothing to cure the problem. It sounds like you are mistaking what you discovered by not properly pressing the key with what is going on with the note-cutoff issue. This isn't about bad technique. It is about bad design or manufacturing on a flagship keyboard. |
Hmm. Maybe there are different problems going on? My cutoff issue sounds and acts just like the various Youtube videos. I can repro playing slowly/softly exactly the way it is done on the videos. But if I play through the bottom of the key, I can't repro.. but like Kim said, this makes it very difficult for me to play fast/soft passages. For me, it matters how the key is pressed, but the little tolerance before the dampening effect kicks in + the force on the rebound makes it very hard to play in a manner that prevents the issue. |
Are you experiencing it on specific keys or on any key pressed that way? My problems are isolated to specific keys. |
I am having issues on almost all the keys. If I consciously try and play through the bottom of the key, then I can't repro. If I don't consciously do this, then it happens all over the place. Perhaps for me it's my technique? But in that case I will say that the 88 is very unforgiving and I don't see how you can play quickly or softly without hitting the cutoff/staccato issue. I can honestly see my fingers rebounding with the key very slightly and this slight raising of the key is enough to cut the note off. I mean it's like a 1mm or so before the dampening kicks in and that's at the edge of the key. If you go higher this 1mm is even less and the cutoff happens very frequently.
I have had no issues like this on my upright and my friend's grand. |
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Ojustaboo
Platinum Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 1154
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| McHale wrote: | | Ojustaboo wrote: | | ...McHale responding to my post in a very mature way with a fail pic, it sort of makes you look like you simply won't hear a bad word said about your beloved Korg and makes the prospect of any reasoned debate from you seem very very unlikely. |
No Joe, the EPIC FAIL pic is because you feel this thread is your soapbox to air every grievance you've ever had. We're trying to keep this ON topic about the specific issue. Your post I initially commented to and your last post EPICLY FAILED at staying on topic... or anywhere near it.
Korg has acknowledged the issue and are currently working on a resolution. Until one is found, what would you like them to say? That they are praying for you or are curious how your day went? Korg's philosophy on commenting on forums isn't new. When there is something to say, they will. They are not going to come into these extremely negative threads and try to respond to every off handed slam that comes their way. That's a no win for them personally or as a company. Korg is extremely professional, despite what your posts seem to elude to.
Forums are here to discuss and help others, not just complain to make yourself feel better. Staying positive and constructive is useful to a forum. Extremely negative comments does nothing to contribute unless you're trying to fire people up for a class action lawsuit or a good old fashion lynching. |
Sorry you feel that way, I didn't mean to come across like I was airing my grievances or take it off topic etc.
Was simply trying to inject a different point of view as to why people feel Korg has handled this badly, and only did so due to the responses given towards other posters who are unhappy in this thread.
I'll keep my mouth shut from now on
Best
Joe |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is closed for the moment.
I need 30 miniutes to read through the history as there have been a number of complaints about certain users.
Back soon.....
Regards
Sharp. |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, thread open again…. |
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Sharp
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 18197
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Ricky, there is a private are of the forum where I can go to review all history so everything you did in 2009 is very fresh in my mind now as well as the reasons for you being banned back then. Don’t be picking fights again. If you have a point to make, please before typing consider the best way to get your point across while remaining respectful to your fellow members.
It’s good advice others need to start taking in this thread too otherwise I will be forced to get involved.
Remember guys, this thread is about the RH3 issue some users are effected by. Lets stay on topic and lets keep it civilised.
Regards
Sharp |
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MarPabl
Platinum Member
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 938
Location: MX
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:03 am Post subject: |
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The technique is not a valid point to diminish the issue with the cutoff notes. I had an M3-88 which had the RH3 and I never had this issue. Now I have a Motif XF8 and I never have this issue (however this isn't a graded weighted action) I've played vertical and grand pianos and I've never had this issue.
In the Kronos I had (11xx, keybed from Japan), this issue can happen on every note, but really rarely to be presented and 99.99% of the time with no issues and when the cutoff notes happened, it usually was because I missed the note... However, my real issue was specifically on E2 and on this specific key I had the cutoff notes when playing "the bad way" (note the quotes) because certainly I was able to control the problem and avoid the cutoff note... However, the requirement to always being thinking on playing "the right way" (fearing to mess my performance) that E2 is not nice at all and doesn't help to creativity, inspiration and anything.
So no, I don't believe that proposal of the "poor technique". The issue is that the regulation of the RH3 is wrong on some (I don't really think some little less than 1%) keybeds. I hope that the "bent metal" is the solution and maybe we'll get the photos to fix it, considering that metal can get bent when you move the Kronos, even if you put those spacer cards.
And surely the RH3 on the M3 and SV-1 (early models) must be different than the RH3 of the current models. Just check the forums for those products and there are no super popular sticky threads like this one. Also, no past model I can recall needed those spacer cards nor you didn't have to loose the big headed bolts to slightly move the keybed in order to get rid of the clunking notes. It's really a shame that a flagship keyboard have any minimal possibility to fail on the most critical "interface" (the keybed)
In my opinion, we have a faulty design which happens to affect a (I don't think a small) number of keybeds. And the worse is that we even don't know if that faulty design will affect, within some time, those keybeds which nowadays don't have the issue. Additionally, this whole issue is affecting everyone, because I can't advise anyone getting a second hand Kronos 73/88. How do you know this one doesn't have the issue? While you may not worry about this right now, think about it when Korg releases the succesor for the Kronos and you'll try to sell your Kronos to get the new one.
Anyways, I was able to return my Kronos (I would prefer to get refund) and I'll get a replacement this week. I'll test my new Kronos and I hope this one won't have the issue and maybe this one will have a new sticker with the fix already applied (I'm praying I'm not just dreaming).
Also, I must say that my dealer and Korg USA both have been very helpful allowing me to exchange my past Kronos. So, I think we have good customer service, at least on USA. We're now missing the statement for the definitive fix for this issue.
_________________
Current gear:  Access Virus TI2 Whiteout Keyboard (111/150), Access Virus TI2 Polar DarkStar Special Edition, Gibson Custom Lite 2013, Roland MV-8800  |
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