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Rocness
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 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:03 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Rocness"] | MartinHines wrote: |
I have NEVER seen this statement of the OASYS being "future proof" in any Korg produced literature. Please show it to me.
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They may not have said future proof but they did say Open , is that good enough for ya . So when he say's future proof you know he's talking about the O in Oasys so stop it . This is another thread all in it self . |
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vEddY
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 1263
Location: Zagreb
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| MartinHines wrote: |
I have NEVER seen this statement of the OASYS being "future proof" in any Korg produced literature. Please show it to me.
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OK, if you need your eyes opened, here are some links:
http://gc.guitarcenter.com/keyboards/korg-oasys/
http://www.discountmusic.com/korgoasys88highdefworkstation.aspx
http://www.korg-ard.com/cro/Proizvodi/klavijature-i-moduli/radne-postaje/oasys_21/
The last one is the offical page of the distributor for the Adriatic region (or what's sometimes being reffered to as "Balkans" region, mostly). And I live in the region where this is something like a "master distributor". So it's not only "some pages, somewhere".
All of these have the same statement:
"New synthesis methods for creating sound (EXi Expansion Instruments), new effects (EXf Expansion Effects), and additional PCM libraries (EXs Expansion Sample Libraries) can be added, ensuring that OASYS will remain the centerpiece of your musical world well into the future."
BTW, before we start the phylosophy we usually have, this was all taken from KORG's marketing material for the OASYS, word for word. And I think that you can't call this "taking anything out of context" as it's copy-pasted and easily readable by anyone. As you'll notice, large chunks of these marketing materials were copy-pasted on various websites all over the world. Just punch in parts of this quote I posted in google and look it up yourself. And I can honestly say that there's quite a few engines, quite a few EXf's and a whole lot of other things that could've been added to the OASYS. A better piano, as well. That is what "well into the future" should've been about.
You can't in your right mind tell me that this is not misleading, Martin. And your incredibly loud defending actions for KORG are becoming really strange and unexplicable. Because there's only one simple thing you need to understand - they messed up - big time - and refuse to take the blame for it. And don't even get me started on the whole EXf thingy, I don't want to be picky. Because "well into the future" isn't three and a half, four years, however you put it, with an close-to-zero free updates in terms of features requested. We had STR-1, LAC and EXs3, all of which people payed for. And the price tag that came with the OASYS was something OASYS owners payed so they can get LONG-TERM support for their investment. Because that's what "well into the future" is - it's a LONG TERM thing. Nobody's saying that it should be forever. But from these quotes, I'm sorry, but OASYS isn't "just another workstation" with a lifespan of three years. To put it bluntly, not only it should've been the oposite, its lifespan was SHORTER then a LOT of other KORG keyboards. Which is insane, demeaning, cheating and really insulting.
Just as an example - Triton was introduced in 1999. Do you know when was the last update for the Triton? In June 2004. That's some five and a half years. More then OASYS. And it was some two, two and a half times cheaper. So, let me get this straight. Two times less the money, for 50% the longer update lifespan?
What KORG did is misleading, it's incorrect, and this cannot be corrected via simple "let's erase all of those quotes and put others in". Because people were buying OASYS on a premise that these quotes stand true. Which they don't. And no nice and kind and warm and fuzzy statements from anyone is gonna right that wrong. As you pointed out many times in your replies, KORG is a business. If KORG doesn't offer any sympathy for OASYS owners, why would you expect that OASYS owners will offer sympathies for them? Where does that logic come from? That way of thinking goes like this - no problem, OASYS owners are buyers and they have an equal right to treat their investment into OASYS as a business thing. So nothing warm and cuddly in a statement about OASYS's future can "get through" - no "we're sorry, we can't do it anymore" or "we can't develop it anymore as the current economic climate doesn't allow this". They surely did develop it, and offered a product that has some updates when compared to the OASYS, and these updates requiread a s**tload of work. This is no one-month cruise we're talking about.
BTW... I agree upon the fact that there should be no emotions in a business, especially where large sums of money is concerned. At least not a lot. It's a purely rational thing. But OASYS is something that people really have strong feelings about and people have a very, very strong attachment to. So getting dumped on with blatant lies - which is what KORG has done, however you put it - doesn't FEEL all to good for people that invested $8500 on the OASYS 88 and then further $1000 on upgrades, for example. And - if you ask me - I can understand the frustration with that.
That being said, I'm really happy with my OASYS in terms of sounds and what it offers me. It's absolutely superb. I'm not happy with support from KORG as an OASYS owner, but I can live with that. But what I really don't like is when some "shroud of clouds from the irrational side" cloud people's judgements. To semi-quote Star Wars 
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Last edited by vEddY on Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:36 am; edited 2 times in total |
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t_tangent
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Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 219
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| MartinHines wrote: |
I have NEVER seen this statement of the OASYS being "future proof" in any Korg produced literature. Please show it to me.
Unfortunately Korg probably over-hyped the OASYS and some OASYS owners had expectations that were too high. However, this does not mean that Korg purposely screwed OASYS owners.
One question for disgruntled OASYS owners -- assuming continued development for the OASYS was out of the question, would you have been happier if Korg NEVER used any of the OASYS technology on a new workstation? You had to know the OASYS was not the last workstation Korg would produce. Would you all have just preferred Korg release a slightly updated version of the M3? |
Hi Martin,
As an example, I just photographed this straight from page 2 of the Korg OASYS Brochure that my local Korg Dealer here in UK had available for prospective buyers at the time of the OASYS launch.
As you can see, Korg state that it is 'a completely new platform to support Korg innovation for years to come'. And while it doesn't actually say 'future proof', but it does say 'ensuring that OASYS will remain the centrepiece of your musical world well into the future'. That in itself certainly implies this is not your normal workstation and is designed and marketed to be a platform that has long term future support.
I realise that some of us have to play the Devil's advocate, and certainly I dont think any of us OASYS users are so naive to believe that any product will last forever. But the OASYS is not the normal closed platform workstation. So 2 years ago when Korg announced that development and support of the OASYS platform was to be discontinued, it is no wonder that so many users were shocked and bitterly disappointed, particularly when just a month before the much cheaper M3 workstation had just received a huge upgrade including some features that the OASYS community had been asking Korg to implement for a long time previously.
And now with the introduction of the Kronos, it seems quite clear that Korg did in fact continue development of the platform, but have instead remarketed and rebranded the same technology in a new workstation, which although is fantastic in its own right, but is at the detriment to their existing loyal OASYS customer base, people who paid an enormous sum of money of which partly was for Korg's continued long term development of the platform, this Open Architecture philosophy.
And not only this, but they then have the audacity to introduce the Kronos as a completely new platform and not think or even worse care that both existing and new customers are intelligent enough to realise that most of this technology has already existed in another workstation for several years.
But as I have said before, the point is that whether or not all this was intended, it has still caused a great deal of resentment and distrust amongst many long term Korg customers as can clearly be seen all over the internet on related forums, and I think that Korg really do need to do something to address this or they will lose real credibility in the long term. A serious case of cutting off the nose to spite the face, the nose in this case being the OASYS.
Don't get me wrong, I really do hope that Kronos is a successful workstation for Korg, but it seems they have continued development of the OASYS project to the detriment of the existing OASYS community, all with a simple name change. But surely it cannot have been impossible to have continued this alongside some kind of upgrade path for the OASYS. Perhaps we will see in due course, god willing.
Finally I am sure there will be others who will try and pick my points apart again, but perhaps that is due to their need to justify their own investment and purchasing decisions by staying loyal to Korg no matter what, instead of taking the age old stance of "The customer is always right"
Cheers
Tim
Last edited by t_tangent on Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vEddY
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 1263
Location: Zagreb
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| t_tangent wrote: |
Hi Martin,
[URL=http://img109.imageshack.us/i/korgoasysbrochurepage2.jpg/][IMG]
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http://img109.imageshack.us/i/korgoasysbrochurepage2.jpg
Let's help you out with that image, if nothing else, via URL And I added some links to the "almost same thing" in my post, as well...
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Check out http://it-review.net. Reviews and news - hardware, software and musical instruments.
Personally? LPI. RHCE, RHCI, RHCX, RHCVA. MCITP 2008 certification done. MCITP Virtualization Administrator done. MCITP Exchange 2010 done. MCITP MS SQL 2008 done. MCT done. MCSE Server Infrastructure 2012, MCSE: Private Cloud, MCSE:Messaging and MCSE: Desktop Infrastructure done. VCP5-DV done. VCI done. MCITP: Sharepoint 2010 Administrator done. VCP5-Cloud done. VCP5-DT done. VCAP5-DCA done. VCP6-DCV done. |
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t_tangent
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Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 219
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Hi Veddy,
LOL, thanks
Sorted it eventually, haha.
Cheers |
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Naviára
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Joined: 29 Jul 2010
Posts: 52
Location: germany
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| MartinHines wrote: | | Naviára wrote: | But with Oasys and Kronos we have a complete new situation (sorry if I repeat myself) - for the first time we have compatible and equal hardware performance and a simple software update could change a Oasys to a Kronos - Korg only has to work on an installer for the Oasys. This job usually could be done in a few days, if it isn't just hours. Like I said before.. they don't have to do it for free..
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This is simply not true. Korg would not be able to run the Kronos software on an OASYS with a "simple software update". If it were that simple, Korg would have done it. |
Hi Martin,
yes it's just that simple - they don't build a completly new software.. they took the Oasys OS 1.3.3a and added a few things - all the inforation about the O, the button layout, the audio engine is still there.. they didn't even change the "soundcard" - what they have to do is to make a bigger script... for the lower screen resolution...
A.
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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-walters
http://www.naviara.de |
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cello
Platinum Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2152
Location: Glasgow, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| t_tangent wrote: | | MartinHines wrote: | | However, this does not mean that Korg purposely screwed OASYS owners. |
instead of taking the age old stance of "The customer is always right"
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Great post t_tangent! Hammer and the nail and all that.
@ Martin - no-one here is accusing Korg of purposely screwing O customers. Not at all. But the reality of it is that their decisions EFFECTIVELY have.
Okay. Let's humour you. Imagine that we're all wrong - us O users who feel maligned. All the evidence we point to is fabricated and there is not an ounce of credibility in any of our views.
So where's Korg statement to say we're wrong, pointing to the evidence that proves we're wrong? We know that Korg staff visit here but they choose not to comment.
The truth is that they can't - my contention is there is probably something in law that Korg has stipulated that staff cannot make comment. I don't know enough about law to say exactly what that legal reason might be - but clearly there is something that Korg wants to prevent/avoid. If there wasn't, then surely Korg staff could simply come on and say 'Yeh, you're right we developed the O (yeh, we know we said we wouldn't), re-boxed it to look like cheaper models, added a few cool ideas we had and priced it half the price of the original - and by the way, there will be nothing ever for the O from this point onwards'.
Korg neither say it's the end of the road nor there'll be something but not for a while... nor do they acknowledge that O users have been left high and dry (also effectively with a de-valued keyboard) and commit to retaining customer goodwill by announcing some kind of O upgrade/update.
Someone in Korg knows that O users have been 'left out' of the future of its own vision and from the very clearly stated views of the majority of O users (who contribute to forums). And yet, silence.
And you know what they say... 'silence speaks volumes'. 
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Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5, |
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Charlie
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Posts: 997
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: |
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1: I still enjoy my Oasys and I am gratefull Korg created it.
2: I believe Kronos to be a smart development and become a success.
3: I dislike Korg's (non)communication policy A LOT! I'm pretty sure they have good reasons to run product support and development as they do. But without explaining, commenting, informing high-end users this policy creates nothing but confusion and anger. And in the end you make longtime customers, supporters and even opinion leaders turn their backs on Korg.
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Akos Janca
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Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 1158
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi guys and girls,
I recognized this thread too late. There are too much traffic on the forum these days. I just want to say I 100% agree almost all bits of what is said here so far. Even if there are opposite opinions! And I'm not confused.
What I also want to say that you are much more important than your gear. Don't idolize gear. They are tools that can be worse or better, and are certainly needed for the "artist" (user). But the artist is more important - and it is YOU.
What does an artist do? He CREATES based on his creativity and using his tools. For himself (first and foremost) and for the world. He finds satisfaction when he can express himself.
How does an artist do it? He can do it in many ways, using different tools, also adapting himself while working. He wants to "SAY" or "SHOW" something and this strong and urgent feeling motivates and help him to find the best possible way using his current tool (whatever it is) in that holy moment - when inspiration strikes.
What does an artist do it with? An artist can work with almost any tools. (OK, over a certain level: when I say "tool" I mind serious devices not cheap toys, of course.) Think about the famous musicians who perform brilliantly on MI demonstrations. And remember how they did it years ago with the previous product. Similarly. Because they can use all products.
Korg makes outstanding instruments. So does Kurzweil, Yamaha, Nord, Roland etc. They can be compared for sure. But at the end of the day the only important thing is how YOU - not the demonstrator - can play that particular instrument.
It's much better/gainful/profitable to practice and learn music more using your actual gear (if it's good enough, see above) than to buy another instrument just because Mr. XY played it so well or it's a bit better. Of course, if you have enough money, why not? Just don't think that will make your music significantly better. It may sound a bit better, you may be call new functions, but this still will not play/write/perform better music instead of yourself (OK, except KARMA  ). The music is in YOU.
Suppose Jordan Rudess sells his OASYS and doesn't buy the KRONOS but will use his K2600 again.  Will it deteriorate his music? Will it do any harm to Dream Theater? Not. Not at all.
Because K2600, for example, is already so good. Good enough. Over the needed level. Enough for a talented artist to work with. Lesson: first enjoy your instruments now and play them as good as you can. Be proud of your Triton, M3, OASYS, K2600, Motif, Fantom, Nord Stage, E-MU, Ensoniq etc.
I'm not a businessman to talk about "products" and "customers". I know this attitude is needed for manufacturers, they need to survive - and we also need them to survive. But as a musician I like to talk about "instruments" and "musicians" instead. Keyboard instruments are wonderful nowadays. The real things, acoustic piano, B3, Rhodes etc., are still better in themselves - because they are not inferior imitations. We are very lucky to see the new instruments and possibilities and to be able to buy some. But I hate to be forced to think about "trading" with my instruments. I bought them to use (and not to sell or exchange) them, to create with them - and I love them.
If you can afford, buy Kronos and fall in love with her. It's great. But do you think the streaming piano - which is fantastic, no doubt - will guarantee your success? No. With its great sound and sensitivity this will delight yourself - that is very important, of course. If you've bought that for this feeling, nothing wrong with it. But if you can't play well enough then this piano won't help you to get significantly better than using your current good piano. On the contrary, if you already can play well then you got your success with your current good piano and - again - this piano won't give you significantly bigger success.
Don't get me wrong, new technology is amazing. But you - as an inspired artist - are (should be) even more amazing.
It's useful being informed. But we are a bit too informed here. I've already told my detailed opion about OASYS (The Best Workstation) in many posts in the OASYS section. Instead of discussing for long months about what I haven't seen yet I will spend my valuable time with composing and playing music. If you need me you know where to find me - in my home studio, of course!  Send a PM/email anytime. If Korg want to sell something to me they can find me on the registered user's list. And if I will need to buy something from Korg I will contact them.
I'm very grateful to meet you and I'm proud to be a member here. I've learned a lot so far. Also tried to help as I could sometimes. I'm not gonna leave the forum. I will be monitoring the OASYS section for news - as I did in the past. I also think it would be very useful to collect/update the information again regarding OASYS repairment and spare parts from 2011. Maybe in this new thread.
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Last edited by Akos Janca on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MartinHines
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Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I am very familiar with the OASYS marketing. nowhere did I see the phrase "future proof". There is a HUGE difference between the phrases "well into the future/years to come" and "future proof"; the former implies the product will be supported "for years" while the latter implies the product can be upgraded indefinitely.
I would agree Korg went overboard on the marketing, but the fact is Korg did provide updates for the OASYS for a number of years.
The only specific item that Korg promised but did not deliver was the EXf (effects). To me this definitely shows Korg stopped its master upgrade plan for the OASYS short of what it originally intended. Did that suck? Yes. Should users be upset/disappointed with Korg for stopping OASYS development? Yes. Did Korg purposely deceive owners? No.
| vEddY wrote: |
And your incredibly loud defending actions for KORG are becoming really strange and unexplicable. |
What I don't like are many people's comments implying that Korg was malicious about this and somehow enjoys the fact they stopped OASYS development prematurely, and that Korg somehow purposely made promises they knew they never planned to fulfill.
| vEddY wrote: |
Because there's only one simple thing you need to understand - they messed up - big time - and refuse to take the blame for it. |
Who says they "refuse to take the blame for it"? Do you actually believe Korg doesn't know that many OASYS owners are upset? Do you actually believe Korg doesn't know, for example, that they promised EXf development in their marketing materials but did not deliver on it?
Of course Korg knows stopping OASYS development created user dissatisfaction. That tells me it was a hard decision to make, knowing some customers might not buy Korg products in the future because of it. It would not surprise me if the OASYS sold in lower numbers than Korg originally planned. Korg may have never even recovered their initial investment in the OASYS.
| vEddY wrote: |
And the price tag that came with the OASYS was something OASYS owners payed so they can get LONG-TERM support for their investment.
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Unfortunately I think some people had an unrealistic expectation of the definition of "long term". If the economy had not tanked I suspect Korg would have only provided one additional update (like the EXfs and maybe one more EXi).
Perhaps I am different than others, having already owned a Karma, Triton Studio, Triton Rack, and Triton Extreme. With all of these products I saw a consistent trend of updates for a few years, then release of a new product. The OASYS was marketed with more focus on future updates, so I would have expected the OASYS support to be a little longer than the other keyboards. However, I never expected that OASYS development would have continued as long as many OASYS owners seem to have assumed.
Perhaps the problem was the price. I viewed the expensive price due to (1) the actual cost of producing a keyboard with expensive components and (2) the fact this would be a low-volume product, requiring Korg to make a larger financial return on each unit sold to compensate for the low volume. Others, like yourself, interpreted the expensive price as something like a "service contract" where the price you paid was paying for x number of years of future development.
| vEddY wrote: |
Just as an example - Triton was introduced in 1999. Do you know when was the last update for the Triton? In June 2004. That's some five and a half years. More then OASYS. And it was some two, two and a half times cheaper. So, let me get this straight. Two times less the money, for 50% the longer update lifespan? |
You are confusing updates to a whole product line versus updates to one product. The Triton Classic was introduced in 1999 and its last update (v2.5) was around 2001. Then there was the Korg Karma and Triton Studio. The 2004 update to which you refer was for the Triton Extreme.
| vEddY wrote: |
What KORG did is misleading, it's incorrect, and this cannot be corrected via simple "let's erase all of those quotes and put others in".
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I disagree with your assertion of "misleading", since that implies Korg purposely stated something they knew was not true. This is an example of what I was referring to earlier, that Korg purposely made claims they never planned to keep.
| vEddY wrote: |
As you pointed out many times in your replies, KORG is a business. If KORG doesn't offer any sympathy for OASYS owners, why would you expect that OASYS owners will offer sympathies for them? Where does that logic come from? |
What "sympathy" are you expecting? Korg readily admits the poor economy affected OASYS development. People like Jerry K. and Dan P. have stated they were not happy about the business decision to stop OASYS development.
OASYS owners have every right to be upset/disappointed with Korg and they can express that by not buying any more Korg products if they want. They can also perhaps have a little understanding and be wary of any company promising anything "long term".
As I have previously suggested, it would be nice if Korg provided some type of goodwill gesture toward OASYS owners like unlocking all of the EXis. This would not cost Korg any additional out-of-pocket money.
| vEddY wrote: |
They surely did develop it, and offered a product that has some updates when compared to the OASYS, and these updates requiread a s**tload of work. This is no one-month cruise we're talking about. |
There is a difference between spending money to develop new products (which can be sold) vesus spending money on a product that is no longer sold. That may seem cold and cruel but it may be a business reality.
I do not believe for one minute that Korg is happy about stopping development on the OASYS. I actually believe they understand that many OASYS owners are mad and feel short-changed.
| vEddY wrote: |
So getting dumped on with blatant lies - which is what KORG has done, however you put it |
Again I would disagree with that assertion. "Lying" implies that Korg said something they never actually planned to execute. I can gurantee that Korg DID have EXfs in their OASYS master plan. Otherwise they would never have mentioned it in their advertising.
| vEddY wrote: |
I'm not happy with support from KORG as an OASYS owner, but I can live with that. But what I really don't like is when some "shroud of clouds from the irrational side" cloud people's judgements. To semi-quote Star Wars |
I get the fact that many OASYS owners are disappointed about the premature stopping of OASYS keyboard development. I also agree that Korg went too far in their marketing about the future with the OASYS (note the Kronos marketing makes zero promises about the future). Hopefully there is something Korg can do to ease the pain a little. However, what I object to (as mentioned above) is all this talk about Korg purposely lying/misleading people, which implies an evil intent on Korg's part.
I honestly believe Korg took a big gamble with the OASYS (releasing a very expensive product) and had good intentions about its future, but those plans were altered due to the cold reality of the marketplace. I suspect Korg will never release an expensive product like that again.
In the end, perhaps my perspective is based on the fact I like Korg and I like the products they produce. They are far from perfect, and they can (and do) make mistakes. However I like to think Korg has good intentions, and this is based on the forum interactions I have had with people involved in developing Korg products like Jerry K., Dan P., Stephen K. and Rich F.
Last edited by MartinHines on Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:06 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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vEddY
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Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 1263
Location: Zagreb
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| MartinHines wrote: |
I am very familiar with the OASYS marketing. nowhere did I see the phrase "future proof". There is a HUGE difference between the phrases "well into the future/years to come" and "future proof"; the former implies the product will be supported "for years" while the latter implies the product can be upgraded indefinitely. |
You're not reading the same thing I am, definitely. "Well into the future" doesn't mean four years. As much as it pains me to say this, it's obvious that the development DID continue well into the future (as we can see 6 years later with KRONOS). Just not for the OASYS users. Misleading.
| MartinHines wrote: |
I would agree Korg went overboard on the marketing, but the fact is Korg did provide updates for the OASYS for a number of years. The only specific item that Korg promised but did not deliver was the EXf (effects). To me this definitely shows Korg stopped its master upgrade plan for the OASYS short of what it originally intended. Did that suck? Yes. Should users be upset/disappointed with Korg for stopping OASYS development? Yes. Did Korg purposely deceive owners? No.
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I know that this sounds like "it's easy to be a general after the battle is done", as we say here... but the initial marketing of the OASYS was at least partly responsible for many users buying it. It wasn't until years later - after a couple of people here complained about it - that they changed anything in it (marketing). Sorry to say, but in the eyes of buyers who bought it on those initial marketing materials, and seeing stuff eventually updated in the KRONOS, that's years of deception. However you put it.
| MartinHines wrote: |
What I don't like are many people's comments implying that Korg was malicious about this and somehow enjoys the fact they stopped OASYS development prematurely, and that Korg somehow purposely made promises they knew they never planned to fulfill.
Who says they "refuse to take the blame for it"? Do you actually believe Korg doesn't know that many OASYS owners are upset? Do you actually believe Korg doesn't know, for example, that they promised EXf development in their marketing materials but did not deliver on it? Of course Korg knows stopping OASYS development created user dissatisfaction. That tells me it was a hard decision to make.
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I never said anything about them being malicious. I said specifically that they screwed up and that their marketing of their own product was misleading, which was something they admitted themselves. And I stand by that statement and believe that statement to be true and acceptable. It's not a evil-intended statement. And they did make promises, then at least half-broke them - which could've been acceptable if they haven't done KRONOS. Which is built upon the same software, with upgrades. Which is problematic in both "general feeling" and the lines used to explain the reasons why they stopped working on OASYS. Because they didn't stop updating the core of it - the software. So, the timeline in which all of this happened is what is problematic, a lot.
Please understand that I have a whole lot of KORG keyboards, have worked with them with ups and downs in the past, and have _always_ liked their products, sold them, supported them, did manuals for them, programming, the whole nine yards. This is not about products, it's about product marketing and the way business is being done. It's just plain wrong.
| MartinHines wrote: |
Unfortunately I think some people had an unrealistic expectation of the definition of "long term". If the economy had not tanked I suspect Korg would have only provided one additional update (like the EXfs and maybe one more EXi).
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If the reasoning you're mentioning is "economy tanked, OASYS software development stopped", then you're plain wrong. It's obvious they continued to work on it, a lot. Which is absolutely fine on every account, except from the perspective of OASYS owner. Not that they shouldn't or something - it would've been fair to provide the same updates to people who were early adopters and payed a whole lot of more for OASYS then KRONOS will cost.
As I'm sure you're aware, nobody's yelling about asking money back, or anything like that. People want to be treated with respect, and have asked only one thing - for their investment (OASYS) to be updated. They didn't receive the updates the could have, that's a fact. But every sane person would be at pains to see that updates were there, but that they can't have them. It's logical and rational. Even if you look at it irationally, it's still right.
| MartinHines wrote: |
Perhaps I am different than others, having already owned a Karma, Triton Studio, Triton Rack, and Triton Extreme. With all of these products I saw a consistent trend of updates for a few years, then release of a new product. The OASYS was marketed with more focus on future updates, so I would have expected the OASYS support to be a little longer than the other keyboards. However, I never expected that OASYS development would have continued as long as many OASYS owners seem to have assumed.
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I owned/own Trinity Pro, M1, Triton Classic 88, Triton Studio 88, OASYS 88, Z1, Trinity Rack, Trinity, two Triton racks, Kontrol 49, LAC, D8, D16 etc. I'm not saying this to make a competition out of it. Just so you see that personally I also invested a whole lot of money in KORG products.
| MartinHines wrote: |
Perhaps the problem was the price. I viewed the expensive price due to (1) the actual cost of producing a keyboard with expensive components and (2) the fact this would be a low-volume product, requiring Korg to make a larger financial return on each unit sold to compensate for the low volume. Others, like yourself, interpreted the expensive price as something like a "service contract" where the price you paid was paying for x number of years of future development.
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I believe that "disgruntled OASYS owners" have zero problems with that - initial price, what they received, etc. They do, however, have a problem with the "successor" as it is based on the same idea, uses the technology they payed a lot for to use it, and is upgraded when compared to the OASYS, while being compatible with it. And you're misrepresenting what I said so I will repeat what I said. I'm perfectly happy with the OASYS as an instrument. I manage to go "around" its shortcommings and have zero problems with the overall level of the OASYS as a superb instrument with awesome sounds. Absolutely, I did hope that it would be upgraded more, and on principle, think that KORG messed up the overall image of the product big time. I never said that I expected lifetime support. What I'm saying is what other owners are trying to explain. Which is logical and definitely not a lot irrational. You should try to understand them too.
And all of this that I wrote doesn't reflect the work I'm doing - either as a musician, or journalist, or studio owner, or anything else. These are views of me personally trying to articulate what other people are feeling.
| MartinHines wrote: |
You are comfusing updates to a whole product line versus updates to one product. The Triton Classic was introduced in 1999 and its last update (v2.5) was around 2001. Then there was the Korg Karma and Triton Studio. The 2004 update to which you refer was for the Triton Extreme.
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Sorry, Martin, but this time you're just wrong. Click here, click "Downloads", and scroll down to "Triton Operating System version 2.53". Direct quote: "This is the latest Operating System update for the TRITON Classic (Triton, Triton Pro, Triton Pro-X). This is a minor bug-fix release. "
It explicitly says "Triton Classic".
| MartinHines wrote: |
I disagree with your assertion of "misleading", since that implies Korg purposely stated something they knew was not true. This is an example of what I was referring to earlier, that Korg purposely made claims they never planned to keep. This is completely untrue. What "sympathy" are you expecting? Korg readily admits the poor economy affected OASYS development. People like Jerry K. and Dan P. have stated they were not happy about the business decision to stop OASYS development. OASYS owners have every right to be upset/disappointed with Korg and tehy can express that buy not buying anymore Korg products if they want. They can also perhaps have a little understanding and be wary of any company promising anything "long term".
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I believe that when Daz in the "Offical statement..." thread told them that they should change text on their webpage as it's misleading, Jerry didn't have a single negative response on that. Don't see a reason why you should defend that stance as it's clear as a day.
BTW, I'm pretty sure that Jerry and Dan were upset about it. No argue there. But knowing at that time or later on that they're gonna do KRONOS, they should've acted differently either then, or later. And should've pushed some of these updates through. And this is the "sympathy" I'm referring to. Somebody should've been loud enough to explain (within the company) that this is going to be a very, very bad situation.
| MartinHines wrote: |
There is a difference between spending money to develop new products (which can be sold) vesus spending money on a product that is no longer sold. That may seem cold and cruel but it may be a business reality. I do not believe for one minute that Korg is happy about stopping development on the OASYS. I actually believe they understand that many OASYS owners are mad and feel short-changed. Again I would disagree with that assertion. "Lying" implies that Korg said something they never actually planned to execute. I can gurantee that Korg DID have EXfs in their OASYS master plan. Otherwise they would never have mentioned it in their advertising.
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In this case there is no difference, since OASYS is compatible to KRONOS. There's a whole lot of difference between a situation where you're developing on two sides (two different products) and when you're developing for products that are compatible. In everything, and especially cost. Which is a minor thing if you're introducing another product with already approved R&D budget.
| MartinHines wrote: |
I get the fact that many OASYS owners are disappointed about the premature stopping of OASYS keyboard development. I also agree that Korg went too far in their marketing about the future with the OASYS (note the Kronos marketing makes zero promises about the future). Hopefully there is something Korg can do to ease the pain a little. However, what I object to (as mentioned above) is all this talk about Korg purposely lying/misleading people, which implies an evil intent on Korg's part.
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I would stipulate that if they offered some sort of upgrade path to ease the pain, or some kind of updates that would bring OASYS closer to KRONOS, that then we could both agree that that pain would be either gone, or mostly gone. The misleading part was the relationship between OASYS marketing, "statement about the future of the OASYS" and the introduction of KRONOS. If you can't see that, I can't help you out, man.
| MartinHines wrote: |
I honestly believe Korg took a big gamble with the OASYS (releasing a very expensive product) and had good intentions about its future, but those plans were altered due to the cold reality of the marketplace. I suspect Korg will never release an expensive product like that again. |
Agreed, they did took a gamble. And their product planning and execution were superb as it's a superb product. It's just that their marketing announcements that they did - in writing, on papers, magazines, promo brochures etc - was just plain wrong. That might have been avoided if they issued a single apology. If you remember, there were quite a few people who thought that an apology would've been the right thing to do. Here's a link where - for example, again - Daz - says he sees no note of apology there. And I really do feel that would've been the honorable thing to do.
As an OASYS owner, I know only one thing - and that is that I'll never buy something on "trust", "friendship", "business relation", "marketing material", "anyone's word", or anything similar. I really took their word on the whole OASYS thing, I was on NAMM when it was introduced, did a review, supported a whole lot of other stuff they've done, didn't say a whole lot of other stuff I've gotten to know over the years as it would've been inappropriate... But this isn't something an honorable company would do to their buyers. It's just wrong in every single way.
My own view - in two sentences - is that I think they messed up big time and that I hope they come up with a way to overcome that. And I love the fact that they've done KRONOS and gone one step further, with studio integration and SSD and streaming and "seamless shift". Respect. But... Not for me, but for their own benefit, I'd like to see something offered to O owners. I said it before and I'll say it again - I'm happy with sounds coming from my O, don't care about the sequencer, and those sounds that didn't cut it for me, I can do with other boards. No problem whatsoever.
As the matter of fact, I'm just preparing for a concert that I'm doing later on tonight. OASYS is the centralpiece for that show, and I've just been programming some special movie themes on it as it's a really, really special occasion. And I just backed it up to USB flash drive. I love that freakin' keyboard almost as much as I love Trinity, which is the untouchable king of the hill on "object of my affections" scale since 1995.
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Last edited by vEddY on Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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SoulBe
Senior Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 499
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| MartinHines wrote: | Then you don't understand how new product development works.
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Well, maybe not, but what I understand is that a company also "lives" from its credibility and reliability.
And as I stated, if it is correct that Kronos OS / functions could be taken over to OASYS then they lost it completely by developing the OASYS OS on the one hand and tell OASYS users on the other hand improvements etc. couldn´t be done due to difficult economic reasons.
regards SoulBe |
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MartinHines
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| vEddY wrote: | Misleading.
...years of deception. |
Again these words you use imply Korg had some type of malicious intent. I disagree.
| vEddY wrote: | which could've been acceptable if they haven't done KRONOS. Which is built upon the same software, with upgrades.
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Would you really have been happier if Korg never created a product like the Kronos, never reused OASYS technology, putting it into a less expensive package to enable many more people to be able to use it?
I am glad Korg is releasing a product like the Kronos, as opposed to releasing something like the M3 but with an expanded Sound ROM (like Roland and Yamaha have done). I thought the OASYS was a fantastic product, and I am glad Korg has created a product that more people can afford.
| vEddY wrote: | | Sorry, Martin, but this time you're just wrong. Click here, click "Downloads", and scroll down to "Triton Operating System version 2.53". Direct quote: "This is the latest Operating System update for the TRITON Classic (Triton, Triton Pro, Triton Pro-X). This is a minor bug-fix release. " |
Fine. I was wrong. Korg released a very minor bug fix for one of their most popular and best selling keyboards five years after its release.
A minor bug fix is not the same as the type of upgrades we are talking about (and the type you expected with the OASYS). I suspect if Korg finds out something they think is significantly wrong with the OASYS it may receive a future bug fix also.
| vEddY wrote: |
pretty sure that Jerry and Dan were upset about it. No argue there. But knowing at that time or later on that they're gonna do KRONOS, they should've acted differently either then, or later. And should've pushed some of these updates through. |
I think you overestimate their power. I got the sense they did raise their objections with Korg Japan. I am not exactly sure what more you think they should have done.
I guess you and I will simply have to disagree.
You imply there was malicious intent on the part of Korg. I believe they made promises they intended to keep, but could not. In my mind, that is a big distinction.
You believe development on the OASYS and Kronos are one in the same. I believe the Kronos is a different product with its own individual business case and funding, even if the project used the OASYS software as its starting point. |
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MartinHines
Platinum Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3036
Location: Topeka, KS (USA)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| SoulBe wrote: | And as I stated, if it is correct that Kronos OS / functions could be taken over to OASYS then they lost it completely by developing the OASYS OS on the one hand and tell OASYS users on the other hand improvements etc. couldn´t be done due to difficult economic reasons.
regards SoulBe |
There is a big financial difference. The OASYS is no longer being sold nor being manufactured. Any money Korg spends on modifying the OASYS software for the OASYS hardware platform is a financial out-of-pocket cost with practically zero chance of earning any money from it.
The Kronos is a new product with which Korg will have a chance to earn money. They saved money on R&D by re-using the OASYS software and adding to it.
Let me give you a crude analogy. I have a last year model Honda Prius. The newest Prius model has improvements in its operation that I would like to have on my Prius. I suspect the software in the current Prius is totally based on the software that is in my Prius -- i.e they started with the code base and expanded/added to it. I suspect Toyota did not even consider spending additional money to try to retrofit software advancements from the new model into my old model. This analogy is not perfect since most people never expect a car manufacturer to apply development on new models back onto old models. However, the idea I am trying to get across is products can share things (parts, software) and still be considered separate from a financial cost perspective.
Finally, I think I will stop posting about the OASYS since I don't think I can convince some of you that Korg is not some evil company that purposely marketed the OASYS with an intent to deceive customers later.
I believe Korg had the best intentions, but some of you think otherwise. |
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rtucker55
Junior Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 94
Location: South Central Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is now 5 pages and most of it pertains to why Korg did what they did instead of the ops Topic. We all have our perceived thoughts why but I don't think the majority of us Truly Know or ever will.
On Topic:
To any of the Korg guys that have read this thread. Is there any chance that Korg will now unlock all expansions for the Oasys now that it's been discontinued?
Kind regards,
Rick |
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