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Would be nice if Korg unlocked all expansions for Oasys
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cello
Platinum Member

Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2152
Location: Glasgow, UK

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject:

Well said charlie! Agree completely and I truly don't think that it would be that difficult for Korg to do (if they care for the customers...). _________________ Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5,

peter m. mahr
Platinum Member

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 1030

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject:

Instead they had a vision. It's name was "OASYS" and aimed how to upset premium customers the most. Congratulations. You are right on target. KORG & More? Ja & nie mehr. _________________ www.petermmahr.com Last edited by peter m. mahr on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:36 pm; edited 2 times in total

rtucker55
Junior Member

Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 94
Location: South Central Indiana

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject:

Charlie wrote:

And that might be the reason they've "changed the game": to sell more. Which is very ok. But Korg has to think about current users too and how to deal with them (if you value your customers). That does not necessarily mean, that you give a refund or anything else. But at least EXPLAINING a bit WHY you're doing what ... might calm down current Oasys users. Rolling Eyes

Personally I wouldn't have a problem if Korg told us: "Ok, Oasys will not be produced any longer. We got new powerful and cheaper hardware. We will change our business model to get much more customers etc." The real sad thing here is, that there seem to come no more updates for Oasys. A wiser move might have been to continue somehow like this: "You've helped us financing the development of Oasys and its technology, which is now largely used for Kronos. We appreciate that and want good relations with our customers, esp. Oasys-customers. Therefor we promise you that all improvements for the Kronos that could technically be implemented into Oasys will be delivered to you as well - for free." Now, that would have been cool! Cool

+10

Kind regards,
Rick

Hedegaard
Senior Member

Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 498
Location: Denmark

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject:

peter m. mahr wrote:

Instead they had a vision. It's name was "OASYS" and aimed how to upset premium customers the most. Congratulations. You are right on target.

KORG & More? Ja & nie mehr.

Peter M. Mahr angry at Korg?!?!?!?!?!?
Then the game HAS changed! Shocked

Seriously, the people that bought Oasys, which was more than twice the amount of other workstations, the most ultra-hard core "fans" or serious people, supported Korg in this development.
They produced 3000 pieces and ALL were sold out (I presume)
We even paid afterwards, for new engines and Exs.

And as "Thanks for your support" we dont get told anything about the current situation!
Thats sour, bitter, saddening..... Crying or Very sad

EnjoyRC
Platinum Member

Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 746
Location: John 3:16

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject:

Hedegaard wrote:

They produced 3000 pieces and ALL were sold out (I presume)

I'm not an OASYS owner, just browsing the forums. But I read this and was surprised. Only 3000 OASYS built?

Also, how many OASYS owners will eventually purchase a Kronos?

If they received the additional addons for free, would they still purchase a Kronos? (maybe that is what Korg is banking on).
_________________

Korg (Kronos 88, RK-100S 2), Behringer DeepMind 12, Roland (GAIA, A-800-Pro)

cello
Platinum Member

Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2152
Location: Glasgow, UK

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject:

EnjoyRC wrote:

Hedegaard wrote:

They produced 3000 pieces and ALL were sold out (I presume)

Strategically I think you're right - and well observed by the way. If O users get the updates they probably would not move to Kronos. Korg wants to sell Kronos so why are they going to reduce their market by removing the very people who know how good the Kronos is (because it is an 'expanded' OASYS).

I guess however that is yet another reason why O users (in particular) are somewhat unfavourable of what appears to be Korg's very cynical treatment of their flagship customers. Korg has short delivered to O users, essentially closed the O program (and developed the Kronos instead) and effectively de-valueing the resale possibilities (even to get a Kronos). Think about it - would you spend $4,000 on an old OASYS that may not have spare parts before long or a brand new, supported Kronos for under $4,000?

I see from your sig you've made your choice! And so will others... which means that the price sellers can ask for the O is negatively affected.

So having been treated 'not well' through the life of the O, now the O community is being kicked in the butt by the de-valueing of their investment. Seriously - only 2 weeks ago, the O could get fair prices relative to the purchase price, lack of manufacturer support and upgrades, etc. Now, two weeks later, those fair prices no longer apply and who knows what one might get. $3,500 for an O-88 two weeks ago - now, who knows, maybe $2,000? Maybe no sale at all - because of Kronos.

So although there maybe only 3,000 or so O units out there, the value paid to Korg is equalt to around 6,000 Kronos. How do you think 6,000 kronos users would feel if they were treated in the same way? Same company remember - if they can do it to their old flagship, they can and probably will, do it to their new one...
_________________
Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5,

SoulBe
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 499
Location: Germany

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject:

EnjoyRC wrote:

[Also, how many OASYS owners will eventually purchase a Kronos?

I´d say it depends.
If you´re looking for the piano models and Epianomodels maybe, but on the other hand the synth engines are the same.

Also noone can say if Korg wouln´t deliver new engines EXs etc. also for OASYS ... they could earn money from the users because of extra fees, so who knows?

I don´t think they are really counting on OASYS users to buy Kronos, it is not necessary because Kronos is for a mass market.

Having said this I would´t buy a Kronos before say 1 oder 2 years passed by and not before I know if and how Yamaha and Roland respond, because they have to do something...

Right now the ony reason to buy a Kronos as stated somewhere before would be if my OASYS dies/runs out of spare parts.

Regards
SoulBe

EnjoyRC
Platinum Member

Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 746
Location: John 3:16

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject:

cello wrote:

Think about it - would you spend $4,000 on an old OASYS that may not have spare parts before long or a brand new, supported Kronos for under $4,000?

Depressing Crying or Very sad

_________________

Korg (Kronos 88, RK-100S 2), Behringer DeepMind 12, Roland (GAIA, A-800-Pro)

Trinity2112
Platinum Member

Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 579
Location: Delaware, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject:

EnjoyRC wrote:

If they received the additional addons for free, would they still purchase a Kronos? (maybe that is what Korg is banking on).

I think there are quite a few Oasys owners who are leery of making any sort of move at this point. Those who haven't purchases the Oasys expansions are now faced with the difficult decision to either buy those expansions or put the money towards a Kronos. Either way they'll be sacrificing something. Be it the time and money spent on their beloved Oasys or the technical advances of the Kronos. They're blindly waiting on Korg to give them a definitive answer as to whether there is ANY future for the Oasys in terms of upgrades and compatibility. And for Korg to put aside the business, marketing and profit rhetoric for a moment and show a little compassion for those who plunked down an enormous amount of hard earned money for their product(s). Is that really too much to ask? Or are Oasys owners really that disposable?
_________________
Current Korg Lineup: Kronos 61, Oasys 76 · M3-61/RADIAS · Trinity Plus/HDR · 01/WFD · 01R/W · X3R · M3R · Wavestation EX · Wavestation SR · Triton Rack/MOSS · Z1EX · TR-Rack · Karma · D3200 · iM1 · iWavestation · iMono/Poly
Other Synths: Berhinger Deepmind 12 · iProphet · Moog Model D
Dearly departed: X3

Last edited by Trinity2112 on Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

EnjoyRC
Platinum Member

Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 746
Location: John 3:16

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject:

Trinity2112 wrote:

Put aside the business, marketing and profit rhetoric for a moment and show a little compassion for those who plunked down an enormous amount of hard earned money for their product(s). Is that really too much to ask? Or are Oasys owners really that disposable?

If I were an Oasys owner, I'd be lobbying for expansion codes and porting the Kronos OS updates to the Oasys.
_________________

Korg (Kronos 88, RK-100S 2), Behringer DeepMind 12, Roland (GAIA, A-800-Pro)

cello
Platinum Member

Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 2152
Location: Glasgow, UK

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject:

EnjoyRC wrote:

Trinity2112 wrote:

If I were an Oasys owner, I'd be lobbying for expansion codes and porting the Kronos OS updates to the Oasys.

Lol - as you will see from the OASYS forum and many other threads, that's exactly the point we've been trying to make to Korg (and I know several non-English forums have the same activity/opinions)!

As someone else stated on these boards, buy Kronos for what it does today. Because the O facts make it fundamentally clear that Kronos users absolutely should not expect a single ounce of loyalty from Korg. It won't happen - this is not my subjective view. This is the logical conclusion of witnessing second and first-hand how Korg has treated it's O customers.

I also say, repeatedly, that Korg has in its power the ability to turn this experience round to a positive one, by releasing a meaningful update/upgrade to the O community - and as per my poll in the OASYS thread, 35% of O users (that are active on the board) would pay between $250 and $500 for that gesture. Extrapolating that out, that could yield up to $525,000 revenue for Korg in regard to work that has already been done for Kronos. Granted it might take them a week, possibly two, to remove references to the banks that use the new engines and package it up - but even to make half a million USD, for two weeks work (look at THAT profit margin Korg!), they won't/don't do it. And they damn well should.
_________________
Plugged in: Fantom 8, Jupiter-X, Jupiter 80, System-8, JD-XA, V-Synth GTv2, FA-06, SE-02, JU-06A, TR-09, VT-4, Go:Livecast, Rubix44, Shure SM7b, Push2, Ableton 11 Suite, Sibelius, KRK Rokit 5,

Naviára
Junior Member

Joined: 29 Jul 2010
Posts: 52
Location: germany

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject:

EnjoyRC wrote:

Hedegaard wrote:

They produced 3000 pieces and ALL were sold out (I presume)

I am one of the second hand Oasys owners - I paid last August 4000€ for my 88 Oasys with case and again for the 2GB upgrade and the LAC-1 / MOD-7 .... the time I bought the O I have allready known that it was discontinued... but I'm very happy with my O, I love the sound, the VA engines, the whole design of this machine, all the lights - a real eye candy.. no simple looking Kronos can change that... If it would be possible to install the Kronos hardware inside the O case, I would do that if my O mainboard dies.

It's okay for me that Korg released exactly the same hardware years later for a consumer friendly price and I think Oasys owners don't have a problem with that either...

But what pisses most O owners off is: At first Korg is telling the O owners... "sorry, we have to discontinue the machine, We know we promised more developement for the O for many years, and we are thankful for your trust (and money), but because of [insert any reason of your choice] don't expect any updates anymore..."

A few years later they come out with exact the same machine in a different box and named it also different. Believe it or not.. The Kronos is just a Oasys with OS 2.0.0 instead of OS 1.3.3a (this is where Korg stopped developement for the Oasys OS)

Now the "Kronos" has the better OS with more features, soundlibraries and it's even cheaper then a used Oasys too... for Oasys owners who paid the price of 8000$ a great loss of their investment... and a heavy slap in their face, since Korg told them that developement had stopped - At last that was not true at all.

Korg could care about the O owners and release a software upgrade for the O, bringing all the same features "Kronos" now has. It's not a complete reprogramming, it's just simple configuration (display and audiohardware) and creating a Installer for the O.

But instead of releasing a update I'm sure Korg (marketing) will let all believe that the additional features of the "Kronos" are not working on the Oasys, but I'm sure that's not true. Just take a look at the maximum polyphony count on both machines... On the heavy synthengines where real CPU power is needed (the VA engines) the Oasys wins over the Kronos, and since nothing is changed on the engines since the O, that tells much about the real ATOM-CPU power of the Kronos. The loss of voices on the Kronos could be explained, I'm sure it will reserve some CPU for the diskstreaming and for the additional effects on the piano and the EP wich are also sample based (like HD-1) - not modelled - (and we all know that sample based instruments will not consume much CPU power at all!) The other features, the diskstreaming, the 8 (possible) velocity switches, the setlists, the feature of not loosing voices if you change a program are all solved by software / no magic.. and it does use lesser CPU power then Korg want you to believe - it's in general clever programming.

The conclusion is the O has to be 100% compatible to the Kronos from the hardware performance side, so if Korg is telling the O owners that this is not possible for the O... (you know what I want to say...)...

Many O owners hope they could use future content from the Kronos, but here again Korg is really "friendly" to O owners - the PCG are only compatible in one direction - Kronos can load Oasys content, but content for the Kronos can't be loaded on the O. What do Korg think ?? "Forget the dead Oasys - If you want to play with the guys in the future, you need our new gamechanger" so all the O owners now have to sell their hard paid O to get a Kronos to be "in play" again?!?!

If Korg use this ways to force me to upgrade I will not buy a Kronos at all...

I could be wrong - maybe Korg will bring a update for the O - I hope so, otherwise Korg will loose the trust of many many O owners and also future customers... it's also a very bad "insider" reputation for Korg too!!

I can understand all of you O owners... I am pissed too... and if anybody from Korg is reading this - sorry for my hard words, but that's the way I see it... don't treat your customers like fools - they trusted your company and words, it's not too late to show that you can hold promises after years.. it even doesn't have to be for free... !!!

So back to the question. Yes I would buy a Kronos if the O and Kronos finally share the same features and OS .. not now - but later for sure (to use the 61 live on stage and the O at home) - If they don't provide the update for the O - I will choose my next synth from another company... I don't support a company who try to force me to buy an entire new piece of hardware just for a few software changes that could also run without problems on my existing hardware... You also would'nt buy a complete new computer if Microsoft releases just a new service pack for their windows OS... Wink

A.
_________________
Korg gear: Triton Extreme 61 MOSS / OASYS 88 #1722

http://soundcloud.com/anthony-walters
http://www.naviara.de

Last edited by Naviára on Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

SoulBe
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 499
Location: Germany

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:47 pm Post subject:

Naviára wrote:

The other features, the diskstreaming, the 8 (possible) velocity switches, the setlists, the feature of not loosing voices if you change a program are all solved by software / no magic.. and it does use lesser CPU power then Korg want you to believe - it's in general clever programming.

A.

Well put, but I´m not sure if a SSD is needed, would disk streaming be possible with Oasys HDD?

Regards
Soulbe

peter m. mahr
Platinum Member

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 1030

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:48 pm Post subject:

Naviára wrote:

EnjoyRC wrote:

Hedegaard wrote:

They produced 3000 pieces and ALL were sold out (I presume)

I am one of the second hand Oasys owners - I paid last August 4000€ for my 88 Oasys with case and again for the 2GB upgrade and the LAC-1 / MOD-7 .... the time I bought the O I have allready known that it was discontinued... but I'm very happy with my O, I love the sound, the VA engines, the whole design of this machine, all the lights - a real eye candy.. no simple looking Kronos can change that... If it would be possible to install the Kronos hardware inside the O case, I would do that if my O mainboard dies.

It's okay for me that Korg released exactly the same hardware years later for a consumer friendly price and I think Oasys owners don't have a problem with that either...

But what pisses most O owners off is: At first Korg is telling the O owners... "sorry, we have to discontinue the machine, We know we promised more developement for the O for many years, and we are thankful for your trust (and money), but because of [insert any reason of your choice] don't expect any updates anymore..."

A few years later they come out with exact the same machine in a different box and named it also different. Believe it or not.. The Kronos is just a Oasys with OS 2.0.0 instead of OS 1.3.3a (this is where Korg stopped developement for the Oasys OS)

Now the "Kronos" has the better OS with more features, soundlibraries and it's even cheaper then a used Oasys too... for Oasys owners who paid the price of 8000$ a great loss of their investment... and a heavy slap in their face, since Korg told them that developement had stopped - At last that was not true at all.

Korg could care about the O owners and release a software upgrade for the O, bringing all the same features "Kronos" now has. It's not a complete reprogramming, it's just simple configuration (display and audiohardware) and creating a Installer for the O.

But instead of releasing a update I'm sure Korg (marketing) will let all believe that the additional features of the "Kronos" are not working on the Oasys, but I'm sure that's not true. Just take a look at the maximum polyphony count on both machines... On the heavy synthengines where real CPU power is needed (the VA engines) the Oasys wins over the Kronos, and since nothing is changed on the engines since the O, that tells much about the real ATOM-CPU power of the Kronos. The loss of voices on the Kronos could be explained, I'm sure it will reserve some CPU for the diskstreaming and for the additional effects on the piano and the EP wich are also sample based (like HD-1) - not modelled - (and we all know that sample based instruments will not consume much CPU power at all!) The other features, the diskstreaming, the 8 (possible) velocity switches, the setlists, the feature of not loosing voices if you change a program are all solved by software / no magic.. and it does use lesser CPU power then Korg want you to believe - it's in general clever programming.

The conclusion is the O has to be 100% compatible to the Kronos from the hardware performance side, so if Korg is telling the O owners that this is not possible for the O... (you know what I want to say...)...

Many O owners hope they could use future content from the Kronos, but here again Korg is really "friendly" to O owners - the PCG are only compatible in one direction - Kronos can load Oasys content, but content for the Kronos can't be loaded on the O. What do Korg think ?? "Forget the dead Oasys - If you want to play with the guys in the future, you need our new gamechanger" so all the O owners now have to sell their hard paid O to get a Kronos to be "in play" again?!?!

If Korg use this ways to force me to upgrade I will not buy a Kronos at all...

I could be wrong - maybe Korg will bring a update for the O - I hope so, otherwise Korg will loose the trust of many many of the O owners and also future customers... it's also a very bad "insider" reputation for Korg too!!

I can understand all of you O owners... I am pissed too... and if anybody from Korg is reading this - sorry for my hard words, but that's the way I see it... don't treat your customers like fools - they trusted your company and words, it's not too late to show that you can hold promises after years.. it even doesn't have to be for free... !!!

So back to the question. Yes I would buy a Kronos if the O and Kronos finally share the same features and OS .. not now - but later for sure (to use the 61 live on stage and the O at home) - If they don't provide the update for the O - I will choose my next synth from another company... I don't support a company who try to force me to buy an entire new piece of hardware just for a few software changes that could also run without problems on my existing hardware... You also would'nt buy a complete new computer if Microsoft releases just a new service pack for their windows OS... Wink

Thank you for the best posting I have read here concerning this part of the "story". Although, I made my decision concerning company "K" already - posted on my blog - but for some additional reasons.
_________________
www.petermmahr.com

Naviára
Junior Member

Joined: 29 Jul 2010
Posts: 52
Location: germany

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:56 pm Post subject:

SoulBe wrote:

Naviára wrote:

Well put, but I´m not sure if a SSD is needed, would disk streaming be possible with Oasys HDD?

Regards
Soulbe

Of course... why not??

Let's see - a usual internal 2,5" IDE HDD could transfer 40 Gigabytes a second (there are faster models with 52GB/s). 100 uncrompessed 24 bit stereo voices played at the same time use a transfer of 22 Gigabytes a second. That usually never happen.... and you have to keep in mind that the overall access times on a HDD is slower then SSD. Anyway, the first seconds are allready preloaded into RAM on startup and diskstreaming only is used if you hold the keys longer ....

A.

PS: there are also IDE SSD available with 70 and 80 GB/s (maybe the chipset can't transfer the full 80 GB - but the overall performance would be still better then HDD) you can install in the O - all you have to do is to change the BIOS entry in the O.
_________________
Korg gear: Triton Extreme 61 MOSS / OASYS 88 #1722

http://soundcloud.com/anthony-walters
http://www.naviara.de

Last edited by Naviára on Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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