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MOSS 'Supersaw' sound

 
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cactuarchris



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 7
Location: Neath, South Wales, UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:34 am    Post subject: MOSS 'Supersaw' sound Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone was able to program a nice 'supersaw' sound using the MOSS board. I think I've got a pretty nice one using the unison function and detuning the standard model's saw waves. There is a function on the standard model on the oscillator tab called 'wave shape'. Can anyone explain what this is? I notice the difference in sound when I alter it, but I'd like to know what it is.

Thanks
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elevated
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once used combi mode to layer some carefully tweaked moss programs, to get a supersaw kind of sound... honestly sounded much cooler than roland supersaw osc
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Timo
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:33 pm    Post subject: Re: MOSS 'Supersaw' sound Reply with quote

cactuarchris wrote:
There is a function on the standard model on the oscillator tab called 'wave shape'. Can anyone explain what this is? I notice the difference in sound when I alter it, but I'd like to know what it is.


Yes, it's a beautiful effect isn't it. One which is entirely unique to Korg synths. The Radias has it, as well as the MS2000, and of course Moss.

Basically the oscillator is doubled (cloned), then one is phase-shifted against the other. It creates a lovely effect that, when modulated using an LFO, rocks from one octave to another, without any detuning whatsoever.

To make it easier to see what's happening, here are a few screengrabs when wave-modulating a single saw (one oscillator):



/\ Above shows a standard sawtooth with an overall wave-modulation of 0% - no effect.



/\ Above shows the sawtooth with 25% wave-modulation.



/\ Above shows wave-modulation at 50%.



/\ Above has wave-modulation of 80%.



/\ Above shows 100% wave-modulation - in effect, it's doubled the frequency, hence sounds like it's an octave higher.

The overall effect sounds like two oscillators, one of which is an octave higher, and then crossfades between the two via the wave-modulation amount.

This is what it sounds like:

A standard sawtooth oscillator (no wave-modulation):-

[Sawtooth]

A single sawtooth oscillator with wave-modulation using an LFO:-

[Wave-modulation using an LFO]

Two detuned saw oscillators each independant wave-modulated using an LFO:-

[2 x detuned saws wave-modulated]

.... and that's without unison/unison-detuned, and in mono.

An old example I made showing saws and wave-modulation was this:-

[Brassy saw stabs]

The following shows the difference between: a) two x detuned saw oscillators with wave-modulation using different LFOs, and then b) without the wave-modulation.

[2 x detuned saw-oscillators with/without wave-modulation as well as a sub-osc]

Both in mono, and no unison used. Definately livelier and fatter. w00t. Even beats Hypersaw.

I wish all virtual-analogues allowed this. Really. Really, really.
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Last edited by Timo on Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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elevated
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timo for President!
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Timo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to mention, this particular trick only works when a Saw wave is selected as the oscillator source waveform.

When using a Pulse/Square as the oscillator source waveform, the wave-modulation is simply standard PWM (pulse width modulation).

When using Triangle as the oscillator source waveform, it just distorts the waveform in different ways. The triangle wave morphs between trapezoidal type shapes. Your Moss manual will show a graphical representation.

I believe the Sine wave is immune to wave shaping. It doesn't change. But interesting shapes can be achieved if you increase the Sine level and then start using the dedicated Phase-Shift amount next to it and blend it with the Triangle.
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dave
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the very informative posts, Timo.

Two other Korg synths that also feature waveshaping are the 01/W series and the Prophecy.

Interestingly enough, there's a MOSS bank available on the web that emulates the Prophecy factory banks. This MOSS bank is virtually indistinguishable from the Prophecy -- except for those patches that use waveshaping. The MOSS waveshaped ones are not nearly as powerful as the Prophecy ones.

I haven't examined or compared the respective waveshaper settings so I don't know if this is a result of programmer errors/misjudgement, or whether the waveshaping in the Prophecy is fundamentally different from that on the MOSS.

Kind regards.
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cactuarchris



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Timo, your reply is much appreciated. With your explanation I programmed an even better 'supersaw' sound. I can't believe I am getting that sound out of my Triton. MOSS really is something special. I am so inspired by it now. I guess I am realising why people go on about it all the time. I love my Triton Very Happy
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mosdeaf



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timo, I couldnt get anything from the links. Any way that you can repost them? It looks like you really took the time to break this down. Much appreciated and very informative!
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Timo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mosdeaf wrote:
Timo, I couldnt get anything from the links. Any way that you can repost them? It looks like you really took the time to break this down. Much appreciated and very informative!


Your wish is my command. It's on new webspace. Smile Scroll up.
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mosdeaf



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incredible Timo. What a wealth of knowledge you not only possess but are willing to share with others!
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xpander



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same thing in any other VA? Well, Novation Supernova and Nova have a feature called DoubleSaw. When you choose a doublesaw waveform for any single oscillator, you actually get two saw waves per oscillator which you can then independently phase shift and/or detune with LFO. The phase shift can be adjusted into positive or negative direction.
This doubling doesn't eat any polyphony either, so setting all oscillators to doublesaw, pretty massive sounds can be achieved.
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Timo
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xpander wrote:
Same thing in any other VA?


Access Virus can't do it. Smile

Quote:
Well, Novation Supernova and Nova have a feature called DoubleSaw. When you choose a doublesaw waveform for any single oscillator, you actually get two saw waves per oscillator which you can then independently phase shift and/or detune with LFO. The phase shift can be adjusted into positive or negative direction.
This doubling doesn't eat any polyphony either, so setting all oscillators to doublesaw, pretty massive sounds can be achieved.


If you can modulate the phase-shift with LFO, then yes that's the same thing as the Moss' implementation. That's all it basically is, two identical saw waves being phase-modulated against each other. I think that's also how chorus effects work, except this is built into the oscillator section early in the sound chain which sounds different to merely placing a chorus effect unit on the end result.
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xpander



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it's a little bit different sound.

In traditional chorus effect a delayed and pitch modulated signal is mixed together with the dry signal. LFO controls the delay time and amount of pitch modulation. Basically flanger effect is the same, except that the delay times are faster and theres a feedback line.
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Timo
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only that, it's like each saw-wave oscillator has its own independent chorus effect - so you can have two separate oscillators being independently waveform-modulated (chorused) at the same time.

And seeing as waveform modulation effectively gives you two saw oscillators for the price of one (due to splitting the saw-wave into two), when using both main oscillators in a similar fashion you effectively get a total of four virtual oscillators. Add the sub oscillator for good measure and that makes five.

Furthermore you can detune the oscillators, and/or even modulate the detuning further via even more LFOs (the Moss having 4 LFOs is a real boon, setting each to run at different speeds makes for very dynamic patch creation).

And if that still ain't fat enough you can add 6x unison, unleashing a total of 30 virtual oscillators at the press of a key. Smile Oh yes.

Untouchable.
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