Korg Forums Forum Index Korg Forums
A forum for Korg product users and musicians around the world.
Moderated Independently.
Owned by Irish Acts Recording Studio & hosted by KORG USA
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Sharing earnings between lyric-writer and composer?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Song writing - Lyrics & Collaboration
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Charlie
Platinum Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 997
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Sharing earnings between lyric-writer and composer? Reply with quote

Hi!

I'm new to this section of KF and hope I've selected the appropriate one for my questions ... Embarassed

I'm in contact with an author from California who wrote several books and he is interested in writing lyrics for me. He asked me to send him a written agreement before we start (it seems he expects us to earn some money - well, I'm happy if I will cover my costs Smile). He is able to write lyrics in quite a short time and I like them. Once I have his lyrics I will compose the song and record it (performed by myself and other musicians/singers, some of them I have to pay for). Production will cost about 600 EUR per song and I have to pay for that. To be honest I don't expect a major success - realistically I might sell some CDs and some songs via the internet, I don't expect air-time.

So, what is a fair share for writing these lyrics if one partner invests let's say max. 20 hours for writing lyrics for one CD and I have to devote much more time and finance the whole project in advance? Can anyone give some examples how this is usually handled? Of course I'm ready to share and lyrics are important - but I'd like to cover my direct costs first. Is such an agreement possible: once the project has earned > 6.000€ additional earnings will be split by eg. 40% for writing the lyrics and 60% for composing and performing?

Thanx for any help and comments on this!

Charlie
_________________
www.charliemclight.com/en/home.html
www.facebook.com/charliemclight
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mrniceneasy
Platinum Member


Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 1125
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Charlie. I don't have any experience here but your post interested me. Looking at this from a purely logical point of view [mine].

If You were writing, performing, advertising and marketing the song jointly with the Lyrics writer then I would say that a 50/50 split would be correct and fair, however, what you are proposing is totally another 'ball game'. IMHO you will be doing 75-80% of the work here, writing and arranging the actual music. Spending your valuable time in the Studio and finding the right musicians for the job plus Rehearsal time and then Marketing the resulting CD which will take far more effort on your part. Also from what I can gather from your post you will be taking the risk for the first 6.000€

I would base my offer of a percentage on the figures above, 20 - 25% and as they say 'Everything is negotiable'

Another way that strikes me would be a 'pay per lyrics per song' and then copyright them as your own, in other words the Writer would sign his rights over to you. Perhaps he would be willing to do this for a fixed price.........?

My opinion's of course and it depends just how much you think the lyrics will help your songs........... Smile
_________________
Regards, Keith [pa1000]
www.korgpahelper.yolasite.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JonSolo
Platinum Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Charleston

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a unique situation. What would normally happen is that lyrics would be submitted and you may choose to use them or not to use them. If corporate money were involved you would purchase the lyrics outright and the writer's name would never appear. His copyright would say "work for hire" and he would be entitled to no royalties.

On the other hand it appears that you will be "working together" on each song. Therefore the ownership of the song is 50/50. This means that each of you are entitled to mechanical royalties (about 9 cents USD split 50/50 per song). Additionally you would split any royalties paid by radio stations airing your music.

Songwriting and performance are two different things. A performer must obtain permission to play a written song unless he is the writer. The artist usually has a stake in the sound recording copyrights. This means that their instrument and/or voice is the primary aspect of the recording. Studio musicians are paid outright for their services making them a work for hire. If a label is involved, they likely are footing the bill giving them sole ownership of all copyrights with the sound recording but usually pay the artist a nice royalty.

Now that you have before you how it works with labels, this appears to be more on a "semi-professional" level. This means everything is privatized and you can opt for pretty much any division you see fit. Here are my suggestions:

• He has to make an agreement to you that by sending you lyrics he immediately gives you permission to use them as you see fit and record them without additional release or permission from him. I would also get a release form stating that you carry the decision as to the marketing and distribution of the final product.

Now it gets a little hairy...so I will give you a few options to think about:

• He can agree to standard terms of 1/2 of the mechanical rights and aired royalties (meaning he gets about 5 cents USD per song he co-wrote per CD produced, or sold...your choice). If this sounds low, figure that if a CD cost you $5000 to record and then another $2000 to press up 1000 copies, then you must sell at least 700 of the 1000 copies before you break even on your out of pocket expense. This will not even reimburse you for your time involved...not in CO-WRITING the song, but in performing it. Edit: I forgot to add that this would also mean paying him about $600 USD for the 1000 CDs if the CD had 12 songs that he co-wrote on it. Therefore you would not see a profit till you had sold about 800 of the thousand!

OR

• Set an expense for what you will charge for your time in recording. Add that to the expense of the actual recording. Add that figure to the total cost to press the CDs. Pretending this figure is about $7000-8000 I would then tell him that you will split the profits 50/50 with him. This means AFTER you have recouped the expenses (which you will agree to disclose to him along with all CD sales) then you will send him 50% of the proceeds.

The latter is viewing his lyric writing as more of an equity stake. But when you it is a do it yourself project, it is probably the easiest way to go. Just don't tell the studio musicians. Wink

Solo
_________________
Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jg::
Platinum Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 685
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree with Keith. In the absence of any mitigating circumstances, 50/50 is the standard, traditional split, but that assumes that both parties have equal costs, and roughly equal time input. 70 - 80% for you seems reasonable to me.

jg::
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Charlie
Platinum Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 997
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many, many thanks for all the detailed views! Cool

It seems my original feelings on "what is fair" haven't been that wrong. I believe I will get quite unique lyrics for what I wish to accomplish with this project. I have to think a bit about your comments, but most likely I will go for the "share after break even" variant. Smile
_________________
www.charliemclight.com/en/home.html
www.facebook.com/charliemclight
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Charlie
Platinum Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 997
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@JonSolo: your detailed comments were most helpfull in compiling a draft for our agreement. Applause I went for the 2nd option you described. The only thing I couldn't grasp was your last sentence: why shouldn't studio musicians know of this idea? (I know I miss something here Embarassed )
_________________
www.charliemclight.com/en/home.html
www.facebook.com/charliemclight
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JonSolo
Platinum Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Charleston

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was kinda tongue in cheek. But I have worked with guys (studio musicians) that put in as much as I did for the performance and wanted a "piece of the action" and not just pay to play. This is especially true if they have anything to do with the arrangement of a song.

When you really get technical with the birth and growth of a song it involves a lot of different processes which is why the songwriter tends NOT to get the biggest piece of the pie. With full songwriting credit, the most a songwriter (in the "professional" world) might get on a full blown CD is around $1, but he has likely made some flat fee licensing agreement. Of course that figure goes up if he is also the performer, arranger, producer, and executive producer which will be the roles you will be covering in addition to the songwriter hat.

The best scenario for ANY songwriter is to license a song that then gets airplay. If you haven't signed off on your rights, you could potentially make hundreds of thousands of dollars off of a popular single. Some have made millions off of #1 hits (think Diane Warren).

Jon
_________________
Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Charlie
Platinum Member


Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 997
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, I work together with a pro-guitarist who expects me to give him credit (which I will of course do in the booklet) so that he gets his share in the (unlikely) case of airplay. Is this what you were referring to in your first paragraph?
_________________
www.charliemclight.com/en/home.html
www.facebook.com/charliemclight
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JonSolo
Platinum Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Charleston

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just noticed you are in Austria so some of what I said does not apply. The US does not recognize performers in paying royalties...only the songwriters. Many other countries are different, yours included. In fact I believe Austria was in a coalition with some other countries that petitioned the US Congress to change that right. I don't know of any change, but it is likely that there is no performance rights paid here for airplay.

So yes, your performers would be covered in your country with airplay.

Jon
_________________
Jon Solo

http://www.solosounds.net
http://jonsolo.me
http://www.soundcloud.com/jonsolo
http://www.twitter.com/thejonsolo

Windows 10 | Intel i9 9900K | 64 GB RAM | Scarlett 18i20 | Nektar Panorama P6
Korg Kronos - 88 | Korg Kronos 2 - 61 | Roland Fantom 6 | Push 2 | Maschine Mk2 | Slate ML1 | JBL LSR308/310
Nuendo 11 | Ableton Live 11 | Reason 12 | FL Studio 20.9
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korg Forums Forum Index -> Song writing - Lyrics & Collaboration All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group