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georgeinar Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 3425 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:27 am Post subject: What to do when you're sick of your song |
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I put the following comments in Stephen's October SOTM thread, but felt it was more a general composition comment and not specifically to his song. So I'm reposting this here to get other people discussing this topic.
After I'm sick to death of listening to my song I give it some rest (usually only a couple of days) I usually go back then and with a very critical ear I say, what parts of this song am I the most sick of, which track is the least intersting, is the arrangement so predictable that I find no surprises in the changes once they've repeated a couple of times, where have I missed opportunities that were I to hand this song to a live band they would be bored as hell to play as it's written. Then: are there busy parts and very thin parts where much of it drops out to give several of the best sounding tracks the front end for a couple measures. While I'm working at this level now I need to compose phrases for the bass, the rhythm that weren't in the original. One method there is to do as much as the song can handle, make each repetition thru the chord progression (ie verse chorus or however it's set up) and then each time around have at least one of the parts be different and noticeably so. For instance if the background organ is playing block chords the first 2 times thru the progression, then the 3rd time I'll play single note octaves that harmonize with the lead, spreading them at least 2 octaves apart. This gives a variation and openness to that section that leaves room for something else to fill that in. Or that last time thru, I'll change the key signature and move it up from F major to Gmajor and bring in brass that wasn't in the entire song until then. That trick is to make sure people will want to listen to the whole song because there's that really cool thing that happens in the last progression. I then look at how the song ends and compare my ending with the way real bands end their songs on cds I have in a similar genre and try to make sure the ending is interesting unto itself. After this I then let it cool down a bit and play video games until I'm sick of them. The next time I listen I do this for mixing and mastering, and at this point I'm flip-flopping with other people's songs that are in the same genre as mine and listening for where I think I'm better than theirs, or where their's beats me hands down. I will usually find a few spots to alter by doing that. If I succeed at all of the above I will reach a new level of my own enjoyment of the tune, so that now when I listen to it over and over, (and believe me I listen to my songs more than 100 times thru in the first couple of weeks) there will be a new excitement and authority standing out in the song that I did't hear before in the first 99 times I hear it. Now I can play any section and think, wow there's the part where the bass does that cool run up the scale and hits the notes of the tune for a couple of beats, or this is the spot where the drums drop out and only the cymbals remain, or here come the strings doing that counter melody that didn't come to me until the 3rd week of trying to figure out what the heck was making my song sound so flat and uninteresting. I won't pretend for a minute that I achieve all this in every song, but in general those are the techniques I apply after I have the basic premise of the song laid out. _________________ George Nelson is 2loose
http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)
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ellll Platinum Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3118 Location: Panama City, FL
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hi George,
Thanks for this additional posting of your material at this area....The general direction you carry this is food for anyone composing material a lot...Good thoughts, and I enjoyed them!!!
My Regards, John (ellll) |
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Daz Retired
Joined: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 10829
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Great thoughts and advice ... thanks for sharing, mate, appreciated.
Daz. |
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Stephen Platinum Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 Posts: 4709
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youthinasia888 Platinum Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 734 Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:20 am Post subject: |
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I just finished up a track and went through the same old routine....burn to cd...........run out to the car.....listen on the car cd player...run back inside.........put the cd in the 15 year old Panasonic cd player...........throw cd away because the mix was bad..........repeat 10 times............tweak SoundForge............listen to track to see where I maybe can add stuff or if there are any parts that need to be eq'd or tweaked some more...tweak tweak.......tweak....and then I start feeling.....man, it would be a hassle to have to open up another cubase project....load up the vsts, or hook up the Triton......and then tweak tweak tweak....so.........it's finished. Don't feel like working on it anymore> lol _________________ Dr. Roger L. Su
Director, Taiwan National Scoliosis Foundation
Youth In Asia
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193802
Taiwan National Scoliosis Foundation at Myspace.com
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=103748843 |
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georgeinar Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 3425 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:07 am Post subject: |
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I thought it was just me. The only thing is I don't burn cd's usually. But I do listen to my mp3's through different headphones and thru my computer and thru my dvd player. _________________ George Nelson is 2loose
http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)
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ellll Platinum Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3118 Location: Panama City, FL
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Interesting about listening through headphones..... ,
Again, the general idea I get from many is you just CAN'T do it that way...and you need studio monitors....
I do the headphone route as well...I use Koss Pro4AA and..OLD!!, ESP 6A, (They are electrostatic)...but I listen also through a set of old BIG bose that are still very good...
Tannoy and the others don't make sense for the money to me, BUT I already know many of you do believe in them...
When I make a CD for a friend of my stuff and when I was still doing commercial church work...the people playing the material generally had systems that were,.. I- worse than mine, or, 2- That no one could really operate well enough to get the full advantage...
My Regards, John (ellll) |
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georgeinar Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 3425 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Sadly, I'll probably never master with monitors as I'm in a one bedroom condo. Everything of mine was produced thru headphones. I get around the problem by knowing my headphones well and I also own like 5 different kinds all with very different quality. It would probably make a big difference were I to hear my stuff on a decent sound system, but I can't see that happening at this stage in the game. _________________ George Nelson is 2loose
http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)
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youthinasia888 Platinum Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 734 Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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R U serious George about all your stuff being mixed with headphones? THat's amazing! I have a pair of Sennheisser pro280, and never can get things to sound right with them. It's always sounded bad for me trying to mix or master with headphones. The bass and the kick never sound right.
I have wasted so many cd's ( at least 1 -2 thousand) on mixes, the main reason is becuase 'i want to hear how the track sounds in my car. _________________ Dr. Roger L. Su
Director, Taiwan National Scoliosis Foundation
Youth In Asia
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=193802
Taiwan National Scoliosis Foundation at Myspace.com
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=103748843 |
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georgeinar Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 3425 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: |
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whatever works, is what I say. I have no choice but to mix in headphones, my home surround sound system is good for monitoring at low volumes, or even a quick check at a higher volume before the neighbors call the police. I have never heard my music loud, except between my ears, so heaven help me if I'm not mixing right for monitors. What I should probably do, when I'm ready to finalize my next cd is ship it to someone with good monitors and have them crank it up to see if it works on big speakers. _________________ George Nelson is 2loose
http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)
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chordial Platinum Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 3385 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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The headphone thing surprised me too, how do you ..
We're all guilty of over analysing our own songs. I hope you know what I mean, because you know every note, chord, sounds and line, and more importantly where it was going at the time. That's a personal comment based on my own songs. That's one of the reasons our forum is so good, there are many ears and so many thoughts on all our songs. I'm constantly amazed by the differences of opinion and the feedback that we get.
Man, you have to get the volume up, through some speakers, your songs are meant to played at high volume, you than then kick you and your neighbours a*se _________________ Chordial |
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georgeinar Platinum Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 3425 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:54 am Post subject: |
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OK, I'm getting at 'the sick of' phase right now. I've finished the vocals, sort of, the percussion is decent. All the bass and leads are just about set, but why doesn't it excite me now, why isn't it sizzling? Because I only got 6 hours of sleep and need a break? That's it for tonight. I'll let this one cool overnight and then I've got the weekend to finish it. One of my problems, or challenges is that I try something a bit different in each song, though sometimes too different and then I bust my head open trying to figure out how to nail a powerful punch but in this new way. For instance my current one is 145 bpm, much faster than my last 4 or 5 songs, so the percussion has to be different, and I'm doing this distorted organ and guitar lead that overlap each other and I'm doing a metal/punky crunch thing I've never done this way before. Also, I'm only doing tracks now without worrying about effects and mixing because I'm loading the tracks individually onto my pc to apply effects and remix in audacity (of FL Studio if I can figure out how to use that one). So now the song itself while I'm working on it sounds bad because I have the wrong effects on the tracks so I know what notes to play but they sound weird until I can get them processed on the pc. I guess I should play a video game or something to get my mind off this. There, you see, we all go through this. I usually only post songs once they're finished with so it may seem that they just fly off my fingers but as Chordial said, we know every note, beat, cymbal crash etc. and I agonize as much or more as the next guy or gal. Agony of defeat, the thrill of a finished tune. _________________ George Nelson is 2loose
http://www.cdbaby.com/artist/2loose for my cds
http://www.soundclick.com/2loose or follow my tweets = 2loose_buzzgoth (twitter name)
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mikee72 Platinum Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 971 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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What to do when you're sick of your song...
Well, you could do what I do and just keep starting a new song so that you have 30 or 40 that never get finished! _________________ The Triton Studio 76. Who needs Cable TV? |
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Lorenzo Platinum Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2002 Posts: 3681 Location: Italy
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Well, you could do what I do and just keep starting a new song so that you have 30 or 40 that never get finished! |
I'm more drastic: I've put them in the trash...
regards, Lorenzo _________________ http://www.synthaddicted.com |
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AXXO
Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 8 Location: PALM BEACH FL.
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Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: |
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Just keep going... You guy's cry too much. You are only going to get 1 out of 30 that is any good, and then the fun starts. |
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